Phobos and Diemos Observed

Hi Richard,

Richard DeLuca wrote:
Tonight (8/22-23) was the charm- two little indians. This time I knew
precisely where to look, and both arrived at eastern elongation during
my observing run. Unlike the other night (see my post: 'Call me Asaph
Hall') when I spotted Deimos by lucky accident under still and
transparent skies, I really had to work to find them this time. And I
needed the occulting bar, and also could not see them continuously, but
they were both there, for sure. A satisfying feeling.

Isn't it though? I'm still smiling.

You know I read no reports of seeing either moon on these newsgroups
last opposition. There was even some idiot claiming than one had been
knocked out of orbit and as far as I recall nobody was able to stand up
and say, "no way--I just saw them." What a terrific opposition this is.

Congrats Richard!

Greg
--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools Software for the Observer:
http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

Skyhound Observing Pages:
http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html

"Greg Crinklaw" wrote in message
...
Hi Richard,


You know I read no reports of seeing either moon on these newsgroups
last opposition. There was even some idiot claiming than one had been
knocked out of orbit and as far as I recall nobody was able to stand up
and say, "no way--I just saw them." What a terrific opposition this is.

Congrats Richard!


Hi Greg,

Although this is a good opposition in terms of the distance of the planet,
it's not so great for those of us at high northern latitudes, who are
observing Mars through the "murk" close to the horizon due to the -15 degree
declination of the planet.

I'm delighted to hear that you've spotted the moons - that's a fabulous
achievement! - but I'm not certain I agree with your comment made in an
earlier post that "it's now or never" as far as observing them goes. How
would you rate, for example, this opposition compared with the next one in
Nov 2005 in terms of the facts that, although the planet will be 0.1 AU more
distant, it will also be 30 degrees further north, at +15 rather than the
current -15?

My personal "gut feeling" is that the fact that Mars will be high in the
sky for us northern observers will more than compensate for the fact that
the satellites will be slightly fainter and slightly closer to the planet.
Have you any thoughts on this?

Regards,

Chris

"Greg Crinklaw" wrote in message
...
Hi Richard,


You know I read no reports of seeing either moon on these newsgroups
last opposition. There was even some idiot claiming than one had been
knocked out of orbit and as far as I recall nobody was able to stand up
and say, "no way--I just saw them." What a terrific opposition this is.

Congrats Richard!


Hi Greg,

Although this is a good opposition in terms of the distance of the planet,
it's not so great for those of us at high northern latitudes, who are
observing Mars through the "murk" close to the horizon due to the -15 degree
declination of the planet.

I'm delighted to hear that you've spotted the moons - that's a fabulous
achievement! - but I'm not certain I agree with your comment made in an
earlier post that "it's now or never" as far as observing them goes. How
would you rate, for example, this opposition compared with the next one in
Nov 2005 in terms of the facts that, although the planet will be 0.1 AU more
distant, it will also be 30 degrees further north, at +15 rather than the
current -15?

My personal "gut feeling" is that the fact that Mars will be high in the
sky for us northern observers will more than compensate for the fact that
the satellites will be slightly fainter and slightly closer to the planet.
Have you any thoughts on this?

Regards,

Chris

Hi Chris,

Chris Marriott wrote:
Although this is a good opposition in terms of the distance of the planet,
it's not so great for those of us at high northern latitudes, who are
observing Mars through the "murk" close to the horizon due to the -15 degree
declination of the planet.

I'm delighted to hear that you've spotted the moons - that's a fabulous
achievement! - but I'm not certain I agree with your comment made in an
earlier post that "it's now or never" as far as observing them goes. H

My intent is to share my excitement and to get people off their duffs to
get out and look. That applies to those who live at high latitudes as
well. The best time to observe is always now. Otherwise you will
always find a better time...

Now as for the idea of Mars being too far south for those who live in
the UK, allow me to relate an interesting experience I had last last
night. The weather was not very good; in fact it was cloudy until
midnight and even afterward you could "smell" the humidity in the air.

Yet when I got a good look at Mars the seeing turned out to be
unexpectedly good. During periods of excellent seeing I could see more
detail more easily than I had seen the night I had so easily seen the
moons. In short, the seeing was better this night. Yet no matter how
hard I looked both moons remained invisible. Why? I realized the
answer when I had a look at Uranus. It was surrounded by a bright halo!
This halo was so large and so bright that even its moons were
difficult to see in the surrounding haze. No wonder I hadn't been able
to see Phobos and Deimos! Even though the seeing was excellent they
were drowned out in all that forward scattering in the atmosphere.

Now, one could argue that the atmospheric conditions in the UK are such
that the forward scattering will probably always be greater than it is
here no matter how high Mars is in the sky. But is it not true that the
game we observers play when trying to make a difficult observation is be
persistent until we get lucky with the observing conditions?

To my way of thinking a successful observation of the moons of mars
requires a congruence of following elements:

(1) Favorable atmospheric conditions
(2) A favorable opposition
(3) A well designed, well taken care of telescope
(4) An experienced, confident, well prepared observer

Now, we can't control (1) or (2), and (3) is usually a fixed parameter.
(1) and (2) may occur whether we are looking or not. Although less
likely than at lower latitudes, I see no reason that favorable
atmospheric conditions might not be present this very night in the UK!
And I claim that it is entirely possible that a night of low forward
scattering near a favorable opposition is enough to overcome a somewhat
low altitude of Mars at the time (within reason of course).

What I am trying to do here is address point (3) by helping people
become better prepared and most of all more confident. It's easy to
fail at this is if you are sure you have little chance of success. But
most of all, one will never succeed if one never gets his duff off the
sofa! You simply have to try night after night until you get lucky.

It's now or never!

Clear skies,
Greg

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools Software for the Observer:
http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

Skyhound Observing Pages:
http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html

Hi Chris,

Chris Marriott wrote:
Although this is a good opposition in terms of the distance of the planet,
it's not so great for those of us at high northern latitudes, who are
observing Mars through the "murk" close to the horizon due to the -15 degree
declination of the planet.

I'm delighted to hear that you've spotted the moons - that's a fabulous
achievement! - but I'm not certain I agree with your comment made in an
earlier post that "it's now or never" as far as observing them goes. H

My intent is to share my excitement and to get people off their duffs to
get out and look. That applies to those who live at high latitudes as
well. The best time to observe is always now. Otherwise you will
always find a better time...

Now as for the idea of Mars being too far south for those who live in
the UK, allow me to relate an interesting experience I had last last
night. The weather was not very good; in fact it was cloudy until
midnight and even afterward you could "smell" the humidity in the air.

Yet when I got a good look at Mars the seeing turned out to be
unexpectedly good. During periods of excellent seeing I could see more
detail more easily than I had seen the night I had so easily seen the
moons. In short, the seeing was better this night. Yet no matter how
hard I looked both moons remained invisible. Why? I realized the
answer when I had a look at Uranus. It was surrounded by a bright halo!
This halo was so large and so bright that even its moons were
difficult to see in the surrounding haze. No wonder I hadn't been able
to see Phobos and Deimos! Even though the seeing was excellent they
were drowned out in all that forward scattering in the atmosphere.

Now, one could argue that the atmospheric conditions in the UK are such
that the forward scattering will probably always be greater than it is
here no matter how high Mars is in the sky. But is it not true that the
game we observers play when trying to make a difficult observation is be
persistent until we get lucky with the observing conditions?

To my way of thinking a successful observation of the moons of mars
requires a congruence of following elements:

(1) Favorable atmospheric conditions
(2) A favorable opposition
(3) A well designed, well taken care of telescope
(4) An experienced, confident, well prepared observer

Now, we can't control (1) or (2), and (3) is usually a fixed parameter.
(1) and (2) may occur whether we are looking or not. Although less
likely than at lower latitudes, I see no reason that favorable
atmospheric conditions might not be present this very night in the UK!
And I claim that it is entirely possible that a night of low forward
scattering near a favorable opposition is enough to overcome a somewhat
low altitude of Mars at the time (within reason of course).

What I am trying to do here is address point (3) by helping people
become better prepared and most of all more confident. It's easy to
fail at this is if you are sure you have little chance of success. But
most of all, one will never succeed if one never gets his duff off the
sofa! You simply have to try night after night until you get lucky.

It's now or never!

Clear skies,
Greg

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools Software for the Observer:
http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

Skyhound Observing Pages:
http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html

Greg Crinklaw wrote:

MUCH SNIPPED

Now as for the idea of Mars being too far south for those who live in
the UK, allow me to relate an interesting experience I had last last
night. The weather was not very good; in fact it was cloudy until
midnight and even afterward you could "smell" the humidity in the air.

Yet when I got a good look at Mars the seeing turned out to be
unexpectedly good. During periods of excellent seeing I could see more
detail more easily than I had seen the night I had so easily seen the
moons. In short, the seeing was better this night. Yet no matter how
hard I looked both moons remained invisible. Why? I realized the
answer when I had a look at Uranus. It was surrounded by a bright halo!
This halo was so large and so bright that even its moons were
difficult to see in the surrounding haze. No wonder I hadn't been able
to see Phobos and Deimos! Even though the seeing was excellent they
were drowned out in all that forward scattering in the atmosphere.

Now, one could argue that the atmospheric conditions in the UK are such
that the forward scattering will probably always be greater than it is
here no matter how high Mars is in the sky. But is it not true that the
game we observers play when trying to make a difficult observation is be
persistent until we get lucky with the observing conditions?

Greg I agree with all this - had the same experience last night - at
10pm it was raining hard - at 1.30 you could smell the mist but see
Mars through it. My best views of Mars so far have been through a nd
filter - but last night the nd made Mars so dim I could hardly see it
at all, the mist was that thick.

But a constant has been that Mars does not look good until it's above
20 degrees and that a) limits the time you can spend on it to a couple
of hours or less and b) 2am is when I begin to feel physically drained
and still have an EQ6 to carry indoors.

A n elevation of 50 degrees or so as we shall have in 2005 may be a
very better prospect than this year's 23 degrees

Which is not to say I don't deeply envy your capture of the moons -
many congratulations.

Cheers

Martin

--------------
Martin Frey
N 51 02 E 0 47
--------------

Greg Crinklaw wrote:

MUCH SNIPPED

Now as for the idea of Mars being too far south for those who live in
the UK, allow me to relate an interesting experience I had last last
night. The weather was not very good; in fact it was cloudy until
midnight and even afterward you could "smell" the humidity in the air.

Yet when I got a good look at Mars the seeing turned out to be
unexpectedly good. During periods of excellent seeing I could see more
detail more easily than I had seen the night I had so easily seen the
moons. In short, the seeing was better this night. Yet no matter how
hard I looked both moons remained invisible. Why? I realized the
answer when I had a look at Uranus. It was surrounded by a bright halo!
This halo was so large and so bright that even its moons were
difficult to see in the surrounding haze. No wonder I hadn't been able
to see Phobos and Deimos! Even though the seeing was excellent they
were drowned out in all that forward scattering in the atmosphere.

Now, one could argue that the atmospheric conditions in the UK are such
that the forward scattering will probably always be greater than it is
here no matter how high Mars is in the sky. But is it not true that the
game we observers play when trying to make a difficult observation is be
persistent until we get lucky with the observing conditions?

Greg I agree with all this - had the same experience last night - at
10pm it was raining hard - at 1.30 you could smell the mist but see
Mars through it. My best views of Mars so far have been through a nd
filter - but last night the nd made Mars so dim I could hardly see it
at all, the mist was that thick.

But a constant has been that Mars does not look good until it's above
20 degrees and that a) limits the time you can spend on it to a couple
of hours or less and b) 2am is when I begin to feel physically drained
and still have an EQ6 to carry indoors.

A n elevation of 50 degrees or so as we shall have in 2005 may be a
very better prospect than this year's 23 degrees

Which is not to say I don't deeply envy your capture of the moons -
many congratulations.

Cheers

Martin

--------------
Martin Frey
N 51 02 E 0 47
--------------

Hi Martin,

Martin Frey wrote:
A n elevation of 50 degrees or so as we shall have in 2005 may be a
very better prospect than this year's 23 degrees

My point is simply this: people should not use the relatively low
altitude of Mars as an excuse for failure. The key to success is to be
out there every chance you can get, whether it be this opposition or the
next. It's now or never! Hell, it could rain throughout the entire
2005 opposition...

Clear skies,
Greg


--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools Software for the Observer:
http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

Skyhound Observing Pages:
http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html

Hi Martin,

Martin Frey wrote:
A n elevation of 50 degrees or so as we shall have in 2005 may be a
very better prospect than this year's 23 degrees

My point is simply this: people should not use the relatively low
altitude of Mars as an excuse for failure. The key to success is to be
out there every chance you can get, whether it be this opposition or the
next. It's now or never! Hell, it could rain throughout the entire
2005 opposition...

Clear skies,
Greg


--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools Software for the Observer:
http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

Skyhound Observing Pages:
http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html

"Greg Crinklaw" wrote in message
...

My point is simply this: people should not use the relatively low
altitude of Mars as an excuse for failure. The key to success is to be
out there every chance you can get, whether it be this opposition or the
next. It's now or never! Hell, it could rain throughout the entire
2005 opposition...


I completely agree with you, Greg; one should never miss an opportunity to
observe!

My original question to you was, however, a serious one, and I would be
interested to hear your views on it. Do you have any thoughts as to how the
benefit of being able to observe Mars at 50 degrees rather than 20 degrees
altitude is likely to weigh against the downside of the the planet being
somewhat further away, as far as observing the moons is concerned?

Regards,

Chris