|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#81
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
On Jul 22, 11:47 am, Danny Deger wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:10 am, wrote: snip I won't say that it was wrong of your flight lead to fly an aggressive final turn. Good pilots can get away with that. I won't say that it was wrong of you to follow your lead through that turn. A good wingman can get away with that too. My suggestion to you was to rethink your view that your flight lead was wrong. That your flight lead tried to kill you. Where in the heck did I say he wanted to kill me? Please don't put words in my mouth. I only said he wanted to embarrass me by flying a turn tighter than I could. He did not know, and I did not know the consequences of flying into his jet wash. If I had known, I certainly would not have. If he had known, he certainly would not have flown such a tight turn that I had to follow. Here is the section of my book in question. I clearly say I think lead may have been trying to embarass me. There is no mention of him attempting to kill me. The normal way to land is what is called the overhead break. The number 2 plane is put on the side opposite of the break and the formation flies down the runway at about 1,500 feet altitude. As the formation passes over the runway lead breaks and number 2 stays level for a few seconds. After the delay, number 2 breaks. One of the rules was number 2 can not fly a pattern further from the runway than lead. One day this almost killed me. Lead did a very aggressive break. By this I mean he makes a small/tight turn. I followed. If you are too close to the runway, you can't make the turn and you overshoot. I knew I was closer than I ever had been in my life, and I was going to have to make a maximum performance turn to final. At the proper time, I started a turn at the optimum Angle Of Attack, AOA. The F-4 had an audio feed back on AOA and had a nice solid tone in the head set when on the optimum AOA. I was inside lead's turn to start off with, so I am out of his wake turbulence. But, I must go right into the center of his wake turbulence to line up on the runway. Wake turbulence is like small horizontal tornadoes that can cause huge roll rates if you get into one. Normally, a fighter can fly into another fighter's wake turbulence without any big problems. But lead was doing a more aggressive turn than usual which made his wake stronger. Then I was at a higher than normal angle of attack with decreased my aileron effectiveness. The end result was when I hit his wake turbulence, I rolled instantly about 120 degrees to the left. I knew I was in big trouble. Fortunately my training and instincts kicked in. At a high angle of attack, the F-4 does not roll well. I needed to get the AOA down. To do this I pushed the stick full forward until it hit its stop. At the same time I gave the plane full right rudder. About the time my controls become effective, I left my lead's wake turbulence and rolled quickly back to the right. I overshot the roll a lot and ended up in about 90 degrees of roll to the right. The AOA was down by now, so the ailerons start to work. With left aileron and left rudder I brought the plane back to level flight and actually made a good landing without having to go around. The roll excursions lasted a second or two at the most and I was still on glide slope and on the centerline of the runway. My WSO told me after landing he was reaching for the ejection handle as I was fighting for control. Before he could pull the handle, I had the plane back under control. I am glad he didn't have time. At our altitude and roll angles, we probably would not have had time for the chutes could open before we hit the ground. What was strange for me at the time was the lack of interest in what happened. We were well trained to avoid the wake of heavy airplanes, but the general thought was the wake turbulence of another F-4 was not dangerous. I asked that the Tactical Air Command safety organization be brought in to get the word out that if the pattern is flown too aggressively, lead's wake turbulence could be deadly. My request was denied. I requested the topic be brought up at the next wing safety briefing. Again my request was denied. I didn't at the time understand why loosing control in the traffic pattern would not be of interest to the F-4 safety community. Now I think I know why. Leads are not supposed to fly such a tight pattern. He was very likely attempting to embarrass me by flying a pattern tighter than he thought I could. Even if his overly aggressive pattern was not meant to embarrass me, he was at fault for the near miss. It wasn't my favorite lead, John "Lips" Fraley, but it was a respected flight lead of the squadron. If you are part of the in crowd, you can screw up and not be called on the mistake. If you are not in the in crowd, every tiny issue is blown out of proportion and used to further damage your reputation. Being in a fighter squadron was just like being back in junior high. Danny Deger |
#82
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
On Jul 22, 1:27 pm, wrote:
From Danny Dot: On Jul 22, 11:10 am, wrote: snip Here's a direct quote from your text: "I made it a point to insult management at every opportunity I could. I knew this put me at risk." You declared war against the enemy you perceived, and now you are crying because they crushed you. You understand the situation exactly. They did crush me but violated many laws to do it. Lying to local officials and being part of denying due process is not something a government agency should do. I am now in the process of fighting back by exposing their gross misconduct. snip You chose to fight the storm, and appear surprised to find that NASA is stronger than you. Surprise is not one of my emotions. Anger yes, surprise no. When I was locked up in 1999, I knew I had declared open warfare with the Johnson Space Center Director, George Abbey. Part of me was quite impressed that he could silence me by having me locked up. I knew my lockup was illegal, and I knew the local authorities would tend to support Abbey over me. I was afraid I could not even trust the local judges. I was right. Documentation now proves a local judge was behaving improperly. No, I am not surprised NASA is stronger than me. BUT I AM MAD AS HELL AND I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE :-) I am not addressing the right or wrong of your situation. Justice is a human concept. It relies on humans to uphold it. If those in authority and power do not share your perspective on justice, then there can be no expectation for it to be upheld. Your efforts toward justice will be wasted. You may be right. In fact you are probably right. My only hope for justice is to get my story, complete with documentation, exposed in the press. I have found that the people in power support the other people in power. I won't say that it was wrong of your flight lead to fly an aggressive final turn. Good pilots can get away with that. I won't say that it was wrong of you to follow your lead through that turn. A good wingman can get away with that too. My suggestion to you was to rethink your view that your flight lead was wrong. That your flight lead tried to kill you. Where in the heck did I say he wanted to kill me? Please don't put words in my mouth. I only said he wanted to embarrass me by flying a turn tighter than I could. He did not know, and I did not know the consequences of flying into his jet wash. If I had known, I certainly would not have. If he had known, he certainly would not have flown such a tight turn that I had to follow. But I thank you for not throwing random insults at me in your posts. I enjoyed reading actually. You have good insight on the situation, My bad about that part of your final turn story. I remember reading somewhere in your story about someone trying to kill you and I must have gotten that crossed. No one has ever tried to kill me. I never thought that and I never said it in my book. Maybe you thought based on what has happened to me my life is at risk :-) I don't think so. I think NASA draws the line at lying to local officials and working with a judge to stop due process under the law. I really would be surprise if NASA has a hit squad :-) I jumped in on this thread in hopes that I could add something that helps. I'm sure that there are lots of people who are faced with problems of this type. Not much fun. Thanks -- it is not much fun. And being bullied at work is very common. It happens all the time. Europe is much further along than the US in stopping it. Maybe if my story get out, something will happen in this country. ~ CT |
#83
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ... I don't know why some feel the need to pick on spelling and grammar. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt! |
#84
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
"Maxwell" wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ... I don't know why some feel the need to pick on spelling and grammar. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt! And yet spelling errors are often (it seems) immediately recognizd when they are read, so there appears to be something more involved. (So _was_ my spelling error immediately obvious?) |
#85
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
"Jim Logajan" wrote:. "Maxwell" wrote: "B A R R Y" wrote in message ... I don't know why some feel the need to pick on spelling and grammar. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt! And yet spelling errors are often (it seems) immediately recognizd when they are read, so there appears to be something more involved. (So _was_ my spelling error immediately obvious?) Would all you posters taking Deger on please remove alt.fiction.original from the header. We are being swamped by the feeding frenzy. Thank you. Anopheles |
#86
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
"Jim Logajan" wrote in message .. . (So _was_ my spelling error immediately obvious?) I missed it, until I read again while looking for it. I think we all just read and proof read too fast. Seems petty to me to bitch about it. But we do have some world class nit pickers when it suits their needs and adds their desired flavor of confusion to the thread. |
#87
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
On Jul 22, 5:49 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Jim Logajan" wrote in message .. . (So _was_ my spelling error immediately obvious?) I missed it, until I read again while looking for it. I think we all just read and proof read too fast. Seems petty to me to bitch about it. But we do have some world class nit pickers when it suits their needs and adds their desired flavor of confusion to the thread. Well said. If you can't disagree with the facts -- attack a typing error instead :-) I really to like the feature at nasaspaceflight.com that lets me edit my own posts. Danny Deger |
#88
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
On Jul 22, 5:32 pm, "Anopheles" wrote:
"Jim Logajan" wrote:. "Maxwell" wrote: "B A R R Y" wrote in message . .. I don't know why some feel the need to pick on spelling and grammar. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt! And yet spelling errors are often (it seems) immediately recognizd when they are read, so there appears to be something more involved. (So _was_ my spelling error immediately obvious?) Would all you posters taking Deger on please remove alt.fiction.original from the header. We are being swamped by the feeding frenzy. Thank you. Anopheles My apologies for dragging alt.fiction.original into this flaming war. I thought I was posting a simple announcement the draft of my book is available for download. Do you know how to remove a group in Google Groups? I hope at least one person in the group likes the book. Danny Deger |
#89
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
On Jul 22, 6:11 pm, Danny Deger wrote:
On Jul 22, 5:32 pm, "Anopheles" wrote: "Jim Logajan" wrote:. "Maxwell" wrote: "B A R R Y" wrote in message . .. I don't know why some feel the need to pick on spelling and grammar. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt! And yet spelling errors are often (it seems) immediately recognizd when they are read, so there appears to be something more involved. (So _was_ my spelling error immediately obvious?) Would all you posters taking Deger on please remove alt.fiction.original from the header. We are being swamped by the feeding frenzy. Thank you. Anopheles My apologies for dragging alt.fiction.original into this flaming war. I thought I was posting a simple announcement the draft of my book is available for download. Do you know how to remove a group in Google Groups? I hope at least one person in the group likes the book. Danny Deger |
#90
|
|||
|
|||
Houston, You Have a Problem
From Danny Dot:
My suggestion to you was to rethink your view that your flight lead was wrong. That your flight lead tried to kill you. Where in the heck did I say he wanted to kill me? Please don't put words in my mouth. I only said he wanted to embarrass me by flying a turn tighter than I could. He did not know, and I did not know the consequences of flying into his jet wash. If I had known, I certainly would not have. If he had known, he certainly would not have flown such a tight turn that I had to follow. But I thank you for not throwing random insults at me in your posts. I enjoyed reading actually. You have good insight on the situation, My bad about that part of your final turn story. I remember reading somewhere in your story about someone trying to kill you and I must have gotten that crossed. No one has ever tried to kill me. I never thought that and I never said it in my book. Maybe you thought based on what has happened to me my life is at risk :-) I don't think so. I think NASA draws the line at lying to local officials and working with a judge to stop due process under the law. I really would be surprise if NASA has a hit squad :-) "One day this almost killed me." It must have been this statement that I mistook as your perception of a willful act. Once again, my mistake for taking the out-to-get-me message too far here. I jumped in on this thread in hopes that I could add something that helps. I'm sure that there are lots of people who are faced with problems of this type. Not much fun. Thanks -- it is not much fun. And being bullied at work is very common. It happens all the time. Europe is much further along than the US in stopping it. Maybe if my story get out, something will happen in this country. It would certainly be great if people treat each other with respect in the workplace. If you could write a book toward that end that didn't express hostility, vindictiveness or pity then I would support that. As it is, one possible effect of your book is that no one will want to take a management position in fear of having to deal with situations of this type. ~ CT |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Houston, You Have a Problem | Danny Deger | Space Shuttle | 101 | July 25th 07 12:07 AM |
Houston, You Have a Problem | Danny Deger | Space Shuttle | 9 | July 21st 07 02:42 AM |
Houston, we have a problem. | GatherNoMoss | Policy | 72 | February 23rd 07 06:41 PM |
"Houston, we've got a problem" | jjustwwondering | Policy | 0 | March 7th 04 08:38 AM |
Newsweek CW column: Houston, YOU'RE the problem. | ElleninLosAngeles | Space Shuttle | 2 | September 3rd 03 01:29 PM |