It's become clear to me that "space colony" dreamers don't want to face the hard problems Earth-side

We aren't ready yet for large space colony projects.
The technologies not there yet.
Oh sure...mess around if you will....definitely send out robot
probes....
send thousands of those.

But this talk of a permanent Mars space colony or the like, forget
it.

There's a time to get REAL.

Oh I've yelled out in dismay "Beam me up Scotty!" dozens and dozens
of times after a daily dose of the world's "news".

But here's the reality check:
1. Space is deadly
2. Our physical beings are designed for this planet
3. Protecting our bodies/minds for space travel is hard
4. We can't do it yet for long term projects

Also....should we stick our collective heads in the ground, unwilling
to face the hard issues
on our own planet, we won't survive or those that do will be hunting
with stones and spears.

The hard issues like population control, political systems,
environment and the uses of resources, conflict resolution and the
effective discipline of aggression/ambition (for a truly advanced
people this will be done on a personal basis.....as compared to
totalitarian government), etc.

And there seems to be some wise universial law behind it all...."No
race shall spread itself among the stars until it has conquered
itself."

What great extra terrestrial intelligence would set humanity loose
now ??! For crying out loud the Muslims are cutting people's faces
off with piano wire !!!

Yes I send a message now to all friendly space travelers out
there...should you see a Earth ship taking off with deep space
capabilities....SHOOT IT DOWN !!! Until we get our acts straight.

In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

We aren't ready yet for large space colony projects.
The technologies not there yet.

I'm trying to think of a response more fitting than, "well, duh." But
nope, that's the best I've got. I'm sure Henry could put it more
elegantly, but the meaning would be the same.

Oh sure...mess around if you will....definitely send out robot
probes.... send thousands of those.

What in the world do robot probes have to do with space colonies?

But this talk of a permanent Mars space colony or the like, forget
it.

I wouldn't consider a Mars colony to be a space colony; it's a planetary
colony. I agree, there's not too much point in that; our future is in
space, not on the surfaces of planets.

But here's the reality check:
1. Space is deadly

Pish posh. Nothing we can't handle.

2. Our physical beings are designed for this planet

And our future homes in space will be designed for a physical beings.
Nice symmetry there, eh?

3. Protecting our bodies/minds for space travel is hard

Not particularly.

4. We can't do it yet for long term projects

This is true, mostly because we're still in the very slow part of the
progress curve when it comes to space development. If fusion rockets
come along, we'll suddenly advance very quickly. If they don't, we'll
eventually get there anyway, just through the same exponential progress
that characterizes virtually every other human industry.

Also....should we stick our collective heads in the ground, unwilling
to face the hard issues on our own planet, we won't survive or those
that do will be hunting with stones and spears.

Not sure what you're babbling about here. Space colonization isn't
about escapism; it's about providing for the future. FYI, many space
advocates (such as myself) are also environmentalists; the two interests
fit together very nicely.

The hard issues like population control, political systems,
environment and the uses of resources, conflict resolution and the
effective discipline of aggression/ambition (for a truly advanced
people this will be done on a personal basis.....as compared to
totalitarian government), etc.

OK, you go solve those things and let us know how it goes.

And there seems to be some wise universial law behind it all...."No
race shall spread itself among the stars until it has conquered
itself."

Sounds like more rubbish to me.

What great extra terrestrial intelligence would set humanity loose
now ??!

Who asked 'em? Either they don't exist, or they're clearly not
interested in either helping or interfering with us. I suspect the
former.

For crying out loud the Muslims are cutting people's faces
off with piano wire !!!

Not all Muslims; let's not spread prejudice. A couple hundred years ago
it was the Christians burning people at the stake, and before that the
Romans nailing people to crosses and leaving them there to die slowly.
Fanatics and nuts have always been with us. I think, on the whole,
there is less brutality today than in the past, but I agree there's a
long way to go.

Having a new frontier, with plenty of room and economic opportunity for
all, would go a long way to relieving some of the pressures that
exacerbate such fanaticism.

Yes I send a message now to all friendly space travelers out
there...should you see a Earth ship taking off with deep space
capabilities....SHOOT IT DOWN !!! Until we get our acts straight.

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/

Joe Strout wrote:
In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe

I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth. One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

Cheers, Einar

Einar wrote:

Joe Strout wrote:

In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe


I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth. One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

Cheers, Einar


There's at least the possibility that future spacefaring humans will
encounter intelligent beings with a primitive culture. If our
descendants are like us, such an encounter would likely be bad news for
the alien life forms.

Hop

Hop David wrote:
Einar wrote:

There's at least the possibility that future spacefaring humans will
encounter intelligent beings with a primitive culture. If our
descendants are like us, such an encounter would likely be bad news for
the alien life forms.

Hop

I don´t agree with you. At least I don´t believe anything such is
inevitable. I know what kind of behavior probably is at the back of
your mind, say the American Indians, but I really think humans are
changing for the better in number of ways.

To name an example, there actually are big areas of the planet where
wars have become allmost unthinkable, which doesn´t mean I´m unavare
of the areas where wars are still entirelly plausable.

Nowdays, there are actually international rescue efforts, food
distributions, health efforts, and so on. Still plenty of misery left,
but things have never been better or rather never been less bad.


Cheers, Einar

On 24 Jul, 23:49, Einar wrote:
Joe Strout wrote:
In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe

I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth. One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

I think there are in fact two arguments along these lines. One
argument is a supergreen argument that "every prospect pleases and
only man is vile".

The other issue relates to space/other planetary colonies as a "second
chance" for Earth. My feeling is that if generals and politicians felp
that there was a second chance they would not do their utmost to
preserve the Earth.

Also we have to look at what technologies are required first of all
for a non siege colony. I use the term "siege" in the sense of a
"siege" economy. A non siege colony is relatively easy to set up.
Indeed the ISS can in some ways be regarded as a kind of non siege
colony. A non siege colony will of course die with Earth.

A siege colony must be capable of making everything it needs,
including critical components like 0.15 micron chips. A siege colony
would in fact be a Von Neumann replicator, and if Andrew Ng's flatpack
assembler were to be perfected a siege colony would be a VN machine in
the full formal sense.

"Siege" would in fact have propelled us to a critical point. With a
formal VN any project, no matter how large could readily be attempted.
I have said that Venus could be colonized with full VN. You build a
sunshield and you terraform.

There are other implications too of VN. If your idea of a siege colony
is to protect the Earth from human folly - forget it. In fact a VN
machine would open up all sorts of military possibilities. If we did
not at that point have a peaceful world the solar system which would
be created would be one of INCREASED not REDUCED risk. This is not a
hypergreen viewpoint, this is a viewpoint based on the consequences of
a VN arms race in space. In fact it would seem probable that if the
Earth were to become devoid of humans everywhere else would too. What
would carry on evolution would be the silicon organism.

Another argument is that space colonies would help to "save democracy"
- John Savard I think. Sending anyone anywhere with that prescription
is a recipe for disaster. It could even be looked upon as an attempt
to impose one view of democracy on the rest of us. We would not be
free, we would have the sword of Damocles hovering over us.

If people really want to do something for democracy. Democracy
represents knowledge as much as the ability to vote. They would go for
a conformal array + MEO satellites. That can be done now.

Of course we cannot wait for a peaceful world before we do anything.
That, as I have said, would be hypergreen. However we must be careful
of starting a new arms race somewhere else. The human race would not
be safeguarded. The human race would be subjected to the risks of a
new arms race.



- Ian Parker

Mention anything about honest Earth science, or that of utilizing our
moon's L1 and lo and behold, the mainstream status quo or bust flak
starts to fly.

It seems the Yiddish and a few other pesky Faith based swarms of
mindsets does not want to actually salvage Earth, and they most
certainly don't want affordably clean energy unless it's only for
their benefit. Oddly, they also don't want anything to do with
utilizing our moon or that of anything related to Venus.
- Brad Guth

On Jul 25, 7:01 am, Ian Parker wrote:

Of course we cannot wait for a peaceful world before we do anything.
That, as I have said, would be hypergreen. However we must be careful
of starting a new arms race somewhere else. The human race would not
be safeguarded. The human race would be subjected to the risks of a
new arms race.

It's too late. It seems your own kind has started up the ultimate
human arms race, including the methods of utilizing humans and of
their arms as the intelligent method of lethal deployments. Thanks a
bunch!

BTW, Clarke Station as well as my LSE-CM/ISS is off-world doable as
is, within existing technology and expertise. Of course, the likes of
a cool POOF City at Venus L2(VL2) has been doable for more than a
decade.
- Brad Guth

"GatherNoMoss" wrote in message
ups.com...
We aren't ready yet for large space colony projects.
The technologies not there yet.

There's technology, and then there's operational systems. We don't yet have
the operational systems to start colonizing space, but we do have the
technology.

--


Regards,
Mike Combs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth
I bid you stand, Men of the West!
Aragorn

"Einar" wrote in message
ups.com...

I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth.

And it's always occurred to me that if you don't want somebody to do
something, establishing an impossible precondition would be one way.

One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

And the reality is that the universe is (so far as we can tell) an utterly
empty place. I've always said that if humans are arguably 51% good, then
humanity spreading out into the universe would be an improvement of it.

--


Regards,
Mike Combs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth
I bid you stand, Men of the West!
Aragorn