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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
It is refreshing to know that an accurate understanding of Space
History has now hit the mainstream. Neil DeGrasse Tyson last night on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart encapsulated how the Space Race was driven by the nuclear threat: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-epi...degrasse-tyson Here are excerpts of what was said: ===== .... NDT: OK, here's what happened: In the 1960s, we were at war with the Soviet Union - Cold War - and a little bit of hot war in Viet/ Southeast Asia, ok. So, we fear them because they put up Sputnik, which by the way, people forget, was an emptied-out casing of an Inter- Continental Ballistic Missile, alright. So this was not... JS: I don't think people forgot that. I don't think anybody knew that. NDT: Ok. So they put a little device that goes 'beep beep'. And "Sputnik" itself means 'fellow traveler', so it's all peaceful - but it was a ballistic missile head, without explosives, so that was a signal. And we freaked in America. So NASA got founded on the Fear Factor of Sputnik. Alright. So we then go to the Moon on the Fear Factor that Russia will control high ground. Then we go to the Moon - Space enthusiasts say, "Oh, we're on the Moon by/in '69. We'll be on Mars in another 10 years." They *completely* did not understand why we got to the Moon in the first place. We were at war. Once we saw that Russia was not ready to land on the Moon (*clap*) we stopped going to the Moon. That should not surprise anybody looking back on it. Meanwhile, however, that entire era galvanized the nat[ion] - forget the war, driver - it galvanized us all to dream about tomorrow. .... NDT: So today, ok, I'd rather war not be the driver. JS: No! Let it be the driver! Who cares?! NDT: It could happen. If China wants to put a military base on the Moon, we're there in two years. JS: I heard Al Qaeda is goin' to Mars. That's what I heard. NDT: No, you see, with China and Mar[s] - Mars is already red. .... ===== I don't imagine that NDT is planning to give a portion of the proceeds of his book sales to those he learned that info from. The important part is that accurate space history is now entering the mainstream. ....and with that, I feel a satisfying sense of closure with the persistent effort put forth here over the past dozen years. ~ CT |
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
I forgot to mention that he was on the Daily Show to promote his new
book, Space Chronicles: Facing the Ultimate Frontier. (http://www.amazon.com/Space-Chronicl...e-Frontier/dp/ 0393082105) I expect that the book delves into the short summary he presented to Jon Stewart. I'll be interested to find a copy and poke around in it. It's kind of weird to have space history getting set straight by an astronomer/astrophysicist, not a space historian specialist. Maybe after banishing Pluto, he decided that the next frontier he would tackle would be outside his area of expertise?! Or he felt compelled because he was born within a week of NASA perhaps. ~ CT On Feb 28, 3:25*pm, Stuf4 wrote: It is refreshing to know that an accurate understanding of Space History has now hit the mainstream. *Neil DeGrasse Tyson last night on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart encapsulated how the Space Race was driven by the nuclear threat: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-epi...27-2012-neil-d... Here are excerpts of what was said: ===== ... NDT: *OK, here's what happened: *In the 1960s, we were at war with the Soviet Union - Cold War - and a little bit of hot war in Viet/ Southeast Asia, ok. *So, we fear them because they put up Sputnik, which by the way, people forget, was an emptied-out casing of an Inter- Continental Ballistic Missile, alright. *So this was not... JS: *I don't think people forgot that. *I don't think anybody knew that. NDT: *Ok. *So they put a little device that goes 'beep beep'. *And "Sputnik" itself means 'fellow traveler', so it's all peaceful - but it was a ballistic missile head, without explosives, so that was a signal. *And we freaked in America. *So NASA got founded on the Fear Factor of Sputnik. *Alright. *So we then go to the Moon on the Fear Factor that Russia will control high ground. *Then we go to the Moon - Space enthusiasts say, "Oh, we're on the Moon by/in '69. *We'll be on Mars in another 10 years." *They *completely* did not understand why we got to the Moon in the first place. *We were at war. *Once we saw that Russia was not ready to land on the Moon (*clap*) we stopped going to the Moon. *That should not surprise anybody looking back on it. Meanwhile, however, that entire era galvanized the nat[ion] - forget the war, driver - it galvanized us all to dream about tomorrow. ... NDT: *So today, ok, I'd rather war not be the driver. JS: *No! *Let it be the driver! *Who cares?! NDT: *It could happen. *If China wants to put a military base on the Moon, we're there in two years. JS: *I heard Al Qaeda is goin' to Mars. *That's what I heard. NDT: *No, you see, with China and Mar[s] - Mars is already red. ... ===== I don't imagine that NDT is planning to give a portion of the proceeds of his book sales to those he learned that info from. The important part is that accurate space history is now entering the mainstream. ...and with that, I feel a satisfying sense of closure with the persistent effort put forth here over the past dozen years. ~ CT |
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
Sputnik was a hollowed-out nuclear weapon???
rick jones -- firebug n, the idiot who tosses a lit cigarette out his car window these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH... |
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
From Rick Jones :
Sputnik was a hollowed-out nuclear weapon??? Maybe his book argues that the proper translation of 'Sputnik' is Plutonium Placebo. Ha! ~ CT |
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
Rick Jones wrote:
Sputnik was a hollowed-out nuclear weapon??? rick jones Well it had the proper geometry... Dave |
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
Should have been the understanding back then too.
Seems like as a kid I kept finding articles about our space program tucked away in books or magazines with titles like 'Missiles and Space', etc. Doesn't get clearer than that does it? Dave |
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
In David Spain writes:
Should have been the understanding back then too. Seems like as a kid I kept finding articles about our space program tucked away in books or magazines with titles like 'Missiles and Space', etc. Doesn't get clearer than that does it? You're missing the original poster's thesis, which isn't too big a surprise since he's been flogging it so long that only some Google-like service applied to Usenet could recover or even clearly remember it. No sane person questions that the Space Race was, in part, a matter of showcasing technological and economic might, and by implication military and political might. Sane people, however, do dispute the idea that the Saturn V was built to significantly advance intercontinental ballistic missiles, since the Saturn V would be a spectacularly dumb choice for ICBM, and work to advance the state of the art in nuclear-bomb-carrying-rockets would be sensibly done in nuclear-bomb-carrying-rocket programs, rather than on Apollo/Saturn. -- http://nebusresearch.wordpress.com/ Joseph Nebus Current Entry: An Overused Intermediacy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
From Joseph Nebus ):
In David Spain writes: Should have been the understanding back then too. Seems like as a kid I kept finding articles about our space program tucked away in books or magazines with titles like 'Missiles and Space', etc. Doesn't get clearer than that does it? * * * * You're missing the original poster's thesis, which isn't too big a surprise since he's been flogging it so long that only some Google-like service applied to Usenet could recover or even clearly remember it. *No sane person questions that the Space Race was, in part, a matter of showcasing technological and economic might, and by implication military and political might. What NDT was saying is that the military aspect was the *primary* driver. Not some secondary or tertiary implication. * * * * Sane people, however, do dispute the idea that the Saturn V was built to significantly advance intercontinental ballistic missiles, since the Saturn V would be a spectacularly dumb choice for ICBM, and work to advance the state of the art in nuclear-bomb-carrying-rockets would be sensibly done in nuclear-bomb-carrying-rocket programs, rather than on Apollo/Saturn. I have never presented that position. I will defer here to the wisdom of Arthur Schopenhauer... ----- All truth passes through three stages: - First, it is ridiculed. - Second, it is violently opposed. - Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ----- I will take your reply as a positive sign that the transition from the 1st&2nd stages into the 3rd stage has now begun. Of course it comes after this forum has died off - in the literal*, I'm sad to know, as well as figurative sense. And of course I did consider not posting this thread at all, knowing what the standard response of this forum is. But I went ahead and did it with the understanding that the silent majority who gain info lurking through these kind of threads will benefit. And also again with the closure aspect. * - Back in October I was reading about Pat Flannery's death. As much as I wanted to make my own positive contribution to his memory, I chose to remain silent - knowing this forum for what it is. This Google(-like) service has an excellent memory. It can clearly show that I never presented the justification for funding any Saturn (Saturn V among that) to be as an ICBM. I never so much as stated that the purpose of Saturn was to advance ICBM technology. There would have been many much smarter, more economical ways to do that. A key point made early on is how Eisenhower does not get the credit he is due for his administration funding Saturn. As well as funding the Air Force F-1 engine project long before Saturn. Both programs had vision well beyond the needs of any ICBM. Ike funded that vision. JFK just reaped the benefits and glory of Commander-In-Chief Ike's foresight. Last night I read through NDT's Space Chronicles book. It was a huge disappointment, in that he completely skipped this Ike part of the story as well as many other major aspects. He devotes a whopping 7 pages to his chapter on the space race. Oh well. At least it is a major step in the positive direction. Kudos to NDT for this effort! ~ CT |
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
Joseph Nebus wrote:
Sane people, however, do dispute the idea that the Saturn V was built to significantly advance intercontinental ballistic missiles, since the Saturn V would be a spectacularly dumb choice for ICBM, and work to advance the state of the art in nuclear-bomb-carrying-rockets would be sensibly done in nuclear-bomb-carrying-rocket programs, rather than on Apollo/Saturn. I was not aware that anyone outside the "moon conspiracy" crowd that ever might have thought otherwise. As for those folks, there's really no point in arguing religious doctrine. Dave |
#10
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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding
From David Spain:
Should have been the understanding back then too. Seems like as a kid I kept finding articles about our space program tucked away in books or magazines with titles like 'Missiles and Space', etc. Doesn't get clearer than that does it? The history I remember is that Americans in Oct '57 attempted to console themselves by saying that Sputnik did not have enough mass to enable the delivery of a nuclear warhead. This is why one month later Sputnik 2 was such a critical mission. Laika put a harsh end to any such hollow attempts at Americans rationalizing their domestic security. A term you don't hear historians of the Space Race use very often, if ever, is "Throw Weight". ....and I was disappointed that NDT didn't cover this in his book. At least, not that I saw. Just one of the many key aspects he skipped (or missed). ~ CT |
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