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Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 27th 09, 05:58 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
John[_3_]
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

I found this interesting piece of information in the Wikipedia article
concerning the history of the Polaris SLBM: "During its
reconstruction in 1957-1961, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi
received four launchers for Polaris missiles. However, despite
successful tests held in 1961-1962, most of the missiles were never
shipped to Italy, for political reasons. The Italian Navy still holds
a number of Polaris missiles in operational conditions, ready to use
if necessary, stored in an airtight facility in the La Spezia
Arsenal."

A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.

Thanks and fair skies and following seas to you all . . .

John
  #2  
Old June 27th 09, 10:47 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

On Jun 27, 6:58*am, John wrote:
I found this interesting piece of information in the Wikipedia article
concerning the history of the Polaris SLBM: *"During its
reconstruction in 1957-1961, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi
received four launchers for Polaris missiles. However, despite
successful tests held in 1961-1962, most of the missiles were never
shipped to Italy, for political reasons. The Italian Navy still holds
a number of Polaris missiles in operational conditions, ready to use
if necessary, stored in an airtight facility in the La Spezia
Arsenal."

A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? *It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). *I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.

Thanks and fair skies and following seas to you all . . .

John


As far as I know the Italian Navy never received any Polaris. However,
a missile was developed locally for deployment on submarines as well
as the Garibaldi, before being abandoned. This was the still largely
classified Alfa missile http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm
  #3  
Old June 27th 09, 12:23 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Daniel[_9_]
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

"Polaris missiles were supplied by the United States and were flight
tested from the Garibaldi during the mid-1960's."


At that point in time, CGN Long Beach wasn't to receive them.
  #4  
Old June 27th 09, 12:26 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
dott.Piergiorgio[_2_]
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Posts: 37
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

ha scritto:
On Jun 27, 6:58 am, John wrote:
I found this interesting piece of information in the Wikipedia article
concerning the history of the Polaris SLBM: "During its
reconstruction in 1957-1961, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi
received four launchers for Polaris missiles. However, despite
successful tests held in 1961-1962, most of the missiles were never
shipped to Italy, for political reasons. The Italian Navy still holds
a number of Polaris missiles in operational conditions, ready to use
if necessary, stored in an airtight facility in the La Spezia
Arsenal."

A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.

Thanks and fair skies and following seas to you all . . .

John


As far as I know the Italian Navy never received any Polaris. However,
a missile was developed locally for deployment on submarines as well
as the Garibaldi, before being abandoned. This was the still largely
classified Alfa missile
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm

I'm also Italian and can confirm this, but knowing well the Italian
Navy's mindset I cannot be 100% sure that there's absolutely zero IRBM
*vectors* (aside that a conventional-tipped IRBM will be a rather big
white elephant....)

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
  #5  
Old June 27th 09, 03:50 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles



John wrote:
A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.


Since Garibaldi has been decommissioned in 1971 and scrapped in 1972,
this would leave any missiles without a launch platform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian...issile_cruiser
According to that Wikipedia article, no Polaris missiles were ever
delivered to Italy, and since Italy signed the NNPT treaty, they are out
of the nuclear missile business.
Although somewhat difficult to understand, there's a discussion of the
topic he http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/foru...p?topic=2808.0
It sounds like Italy was getting ready to nuke Yugoslavia if Tito tried
anything funny.
That Yugoslavia, Romania, and Switzerland had atomic weapon programs was
news to me:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm

Pat
  #6  
Old June 27th 09, 04:17 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles



dott.Piergiorgio wrote:

As far as I know the Italian Navy never received any Polaris. However,
a missile was developed locally for deployment on submarines as well
as the Garibaldi, before being abandoned. This was the still largely
classified Alfa missile http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm


I'm also Italian and can confirm this, but knowing well the Italian
Navy's mindset I cannot be 100% sure that there's absolutely zero IRBM
*vectors* (aside that a conventional-tipped IRBM will be a rather big
white elephant....)


If Italy had decided to deploy Polaris (or been allowed to) would the
warheads have been under "dual-key" US/Italian control like with the
Thors in Britain, and the Jupiters in Turkey? Or was the intention to go
the French route, and develop a missile system that was entirely under
Italian control?

Pat
  #7  
Old June 28th 09, 05:08 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Markus Baur[_2_]
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Posts: 25
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

Pat Flannery wrote:

It sounds like Italy was getting ready to nuke Yugoslavia if Tito tried
anything funny.
That Yugoslavia, Romania, and Switzerland had atomic weapon programs was
news to me:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm


at that time everyone and his uncle in europe had a nuclear weapons
programm .. add sweden and germany to your little list ..

servus

markus

Pat


  #8  
Old June 28th 09, 06:00 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Jean-Jacques Serra
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Posts: 2
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

I found this interesting piece of information in the Wikipedia article
concerning the history of the Polaris SLBM: "During its
reconstruction in 1957-1961, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi
received four launchers for Polaris missiles. However, despite
successful tests held in 1961-1962, most of the missiles were never
shipped to Italy, for political reasons. The Italian Navy still holds
a number of Polaris missiles in operational conditions, ready to use
if necessary, stored in an airtight facility in the La Spezia
Arsenal."

A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.

Thanks and fair skies and following seas to you all . . .

John


According to this site of the Italian Navy, the test vehicles were
mockups

http://www.marina.difesa.it/storia/a...4/navi0432.asp


  #9  
Old June 29th 09, 01:12 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
dott.Piergiorgio[_2_]
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Posts: 37
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
wrote:
:
:As far as I know the Italian Navy never received any Polaris. However,
:a missile was developed locally for deployment on submarines as well
:as the Garibaldi, before being abandoned. This was the still largely
:classified Alfa missile
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm
:

Uh, you should have read your own cite a bit more carefully:

"Polaris missiles were supplied by the United States and were flight
tested from the Garibaldi during the mid-1960's."


I must precise that the Garibaldi here is the earlier CL/CLG (CLGB ?)
and not the current CVL/CVE.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
  #10  
Old June 29th 09, 01:29 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
dott.Piergiorgio[_2_]
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Posts: 37
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

Pat Flannery ha scritto:


Since Garibaldi has been decommissioned in 1971 and scrapped in 1972,
this would leave any missiles without a launch platform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian...issile_cruiser


Here (s.m.n.) we discussed about the feasibility of use by terrorists of
scud-like missiles aboard tramp freighters, and we concluded that is
rather improbable; but a major Navy with a sizeable and modern merchant
marine is a different sort of animal (aside the rather lacking here of
political will & capacity od taking serious decisions (euphemism) )

It sounds like Italy was getting ready to nuke Yugoslavia if Tito tried
anything funny.


The basic fact is that if Tito tried something, will be considered NOT
funny here.

Still today we have serious issues with the successor states, mainly
kroatia.

That Yugoslavia, Romania, and Switzerland had atomic weapon programs was
news to me:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm


eh.... that was once a nuclear race between us and *switzerland* was
really a surprise to me, when I read for the first time this very
webpage a pair of years ago, i was so --- O_O , notwhistanding that I
already known well about the Polaris and Garibaldi....

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
 




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