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#61
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"Ray" wrote:
We humans are explorers. This is normal for us. As a race? Not really. The bulk of the race is very solidly stay-at-home, take-no-risk, eat-only-what-grandpa-ate. D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
#62
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"Paul F. Dietz" wrote:
dasun wrote: Ever hear of exploration geologists? Mining companies set up camp in the middle of somewhere - like Timbuktu - and the geologists move in to map the local geology. No ****, dasun. The point, which whizzed completely over your head, is that in some situations geologists are *not* sent in, because it would be far too expensive to do so. Even on Earth they use remote techniques when it's sufficiently cheaper. They use remote techniques because it's more reasonable to do so - digging a shaft wide enough for a geologist yet deep enough to reach oil is virtually an impossibility, and remote methods return enough data to be useful. OTOH - anywhere it is reasonable to put a set of eyes and hands in situ, they do so. (Even where it's only semi reasonable - something like half of Alvin's dives have been geologic in nature.) D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
#63
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"Michael Rhino" wrote:
They'd each need a "departure stage" if it were done that way. Is there a problem with two departure stages? If they join together, they are twice as heavy, so you need twice the fuel to get them there. For a given weight at TLI, you'll need essentially the same amount of fuel for the same weight - it doesn't matter if the weight is in two packages (each having half the payload and half the TLI fuel) or a single stack. Thus splitting the TLI stage in two doesn't save fuel (which is cheap anyhow), and increases costs and failure modes. D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
#64
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dasun wrote:
that people add significant value to the exploration processes, which is why on Earth exploration geology is performed in conjunction with remote sensing. They are used on Earth because on Earth people are *really cheap*. Mining companies would never solely rely on remote sensing to decide to mine an area. If there's an area of land on Earth were geologists can't economically be sent to the surface, then mining companies will not employ just remote sensing because the area won't be economical to mine at all. This application of this observation to the moon should be obvious. Or are you going to tell me about all the mining companies just raring to go to open lunar mines? Paul |
#65
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Derek Lyons wrote:
They use remote techniques because it's more reasonable to do so - digging a shaft wide enough for a geologist yet deep enough to reach oil is virtually an impossibility, and remote methods return enough data to be useful. Reasonable == economical. Paul |
#66
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"S. Wand" wrote in message ... I think I read that CEV would be 5.5m across the base of the heat shield, compared to 3.9m for Apollo. I haven't seen any figures on internal volume yet. I'd guess it'd be a bit smaller per person than the shuttle. I think a large CEV is fine for the lunar missions - but for ISS rendevous a Soyuz-class vehicle is sufficient. I'm sure it's too much money for NASA to have another vehicle - but hopefully they'd consider private industry at some point for the LEO market. Wishful thinking... The capsule appears to be about 18-20 m3 and mass about 9,000 kg. With appropriate amounts of fuel about 18 mt to ISS, 15mt without escape system (unmanned). A little heavy but not as bad as I feared. |
#67
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"Derek Lyons" wrote in message ... "Ray" wrote: We humans are explorers. This is normal for us. As a race? Not really. The bulk of the race is very solidly stay-at-home, take-no-risk, eat-only-what-grandpa-ate. D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL Not true. If that were true, our primitive predecessors would not have gotten out of Africa. We humans might have become that way over that last 200 years, but we are explorers by heart, and we need to be inspired and shown the way. I think its pathetic how people are against human space exploration. Too much of this attitude and we will become extinct someday. Another problem is that people are cheap with tax money. They don't want it wasted, so give it back in a tax break and watch how they spend it important things like alcohol, tobacco, drugs and gambling. Ray |
#68
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Ray wrote:
Not true. If that were true, our primitive predecessors would not have gotten out of Africa. We humans might have become that way over that last 200 years, but we are explorers by heart, and we need to be inspired and shown the way. This is just bull****. The vast majority of humans are not explorers. They have been born, lived, and died in small geographical areas -- that's why human racial diversity still exists, after all. Long distance exploration has been a desperate, dangerous, last-resort behavior, undertaken by fringe elements or individuals who would otherwise have been failures. And these elements typically haven't needed megafunding from megagovernment to do this exploration, so the application to the current situation in space is tenuous at best. I think its pathetic how people are against human space exploration. I think the transparently foolish arguments used to justify space exploration are what is truly pathetic. Paul |
#69
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"John Doe" wrote in message ... Ray wrote: Ridiculious comment above. We are going back to the moon to learn to live their! Not just to pick up a couple of rocks! You are naive if you think that. Nothing in the announced plan will develop technology to land "space station" elements on the moon. Nothing in the announced plan will have technology to sohoot mining equipment to get some water. All that is announced is a glorified 4 person LEM capable of staying 1 week instead of 2 days with 2 crewmembers. Hopefully that glorified LEM will have room for a dune buggy line the later Apollo missions. And once they've made the flight to the moon to pickup rock samples, how much do you bet that the program will be cancelled ? That makes no sense. You have a spacecraft designed to operate outside of earth orbit, you make a few flights to the moon and then cancel the program? No. And do what with the CEV? Operate it in orbit only? No. It was not designed for that. I dont think any future American President, Senate or Congress will be that stupid enough to cancel the program with one exception. The moon program might be cancled eventually for Mars, but to cancel it and do nothing outside of earth orbit is just stupid. I think the congress and the senate are dedicated to this program. Ray The shuttle has been to the station far more times than Apollo went to the moon. And the CEV , if it is ever completed, will have gone more times to the station than to the moon. |
#70
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"Paul F. Dietz" wrote in message ... Ray wrote: What else should NASA do? It could cease to exist. Government agencies don't have a right to life. Paul If moon, mars and beyond cannot be justified and its too expensive then why did the Congress (94%), Senate and President overwhelmingly approve it? Why couldn't they just stay with the shuttle or developed an orbital space plane to get to orbit only when we need to or just cancel manned space exploration? I think we got moon, mars and beyond because the US government overwhelmingly supports it and a lot of major aerospace corporations support it. Ray |
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