#1
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Pound Rebka
Pentcho Valev wrote: Pentcho Valev wrote: BURT wrote: Light is blueshifted on its way into gravity. Light is redshifted on its way out. Sometimes even Einsteinians explain this correctly: http://www.blazelabs.com/f-g-gcont.asp"The first confirmation of a long range variation in the speed of light travelling in space came in 1964. Irwin Shapiro, it seems, was the first to make use of a previously forgotten facet of general relativity theory -- that the speed of light is reduced when it passes through a gravitational field.... Faced with this evidence, Einstein stated:"In the second place our result shows that, according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity and to which we have already frequently referred, cannot claim any unlimited validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity of propagation of light varies with position."......Today we find that since the Special Theory of Relativity unfortunately became part of the so called mainstream science, it is considered a sacrilege to even suggest that the speed of light be anything other than a constant. This is somewhat surprising since even Einstein himself suggested in a paper "On the Influence of Gravitation on the Propagation of Light," Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911, that the speed of light might vary with the gravitational potential. Indeed, the variation of the speed of light in a vacuum or space is explicitly shown in Einstein's calculation for the angle at which light should bend upon the influence of gravity. One can find his calculation in his paper. The result is c'= c(1+V/c^2) where V is the gravitational potential relative to the point where the measurement is taken. 1+V/c^2 is also known as the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT FACTOR." Pound and Rebka found experimentally that the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT obeys the equation f'= f(1+V/c^2), which is consistent with Einstein's 1911 equation c'= c(1+V/c^2) and the textbook formula frequency = (speed of light)/(wavelength) This is the blurb given in "Basic Physics 2 by S.L.Martin and A.K.Connor", (1960+ vintage), briefly describing the purpose of the Pound and Rebka experiment. "In 1958 an effect was discovered by Mossbauer, working in U.S.A and known as the Mossbauer effect, which enabled very tiny frequency differences to be detected and measured. In 1960, using the Mossbauer effect, Pound and Rebka succeeded in measuring the extremely small change (only about 1 part in 4e+14) of frequency of the y-rays emitted by a sample of radioactive iron when it was moved from the bottom of the tower to the top of a tower 74 feet high. The observed frequency change agreed with the relativity prediction within 5%." According to your equation f'= f(1+V/c^2) V(a) and V(b) for the tower base and tower top is: G = 6.67E-11 M = 5.97E+24 ra = 6378000 Tower base radii rb = 6378023 Tower top radii (+23 meters (74 feet) high) Va = G * M / ra ^ 2 = 9.7888378648735791276869837432118 Vb = G * M / rb ^ 2 = 9.7887672652959533370556770582427 The problem is that, according to your equation, even a 1.4e+21 hz gamma ray only generates a change of 1 part in 1.4e+21. f = 1.4e+21 f'= f(1+Va/c^2) = 1400000000000000152270.8112313668 f'= f(1+Vb/c^2) = 1400000000000000152269.7130157148 The difference is 1.098, which is near enough to 1 added cycle in 1.4e+21 cycles. A 1.4e+21 hz gamma ray generates a frequency change of only 1 part per 1.4e+21 cycles, when the observed change was 1 part in 4e+14 cycles. That's 3.5 million times less than observed. That's a long way short of the 5% accuracy claim, isn't it? But what did the experiment prove anyway? It seems to have only demonstrated that the gamma ray was created in an entirely different environment to the one in which most other natural oscillators function. The charge structure of the Caesium atom configuration that drives the oscillator of an atomic clock, obviously functions in the realm outside a proton or neutron, as apparently do the natural oscillators which generate the characteristic spectral lines of an atom. All of these oscillators obey the same rule, that the rate of oscillation increases with increasing distance from a gravity source. The wavelength of a gamma ray is short enough to have been generated entirely within a proton, requiring that there be some sort of charge structure configuration within, which will resonate in tune within the proton (black hole) confines. We only see it when part of it escapes. It's more likely that the increasingly "intense" environment deeper into a gravity well is going to increase, rather than decrease the forces acting to restrain the proton contents, hence the frequency increases. The truth is that time (not clocks) runs faster with increasing depth. http://members.optusnet.com.au/maxkeon/the1-1a.html ----- Max Keon |
#2
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Pound Rebka
"Eric Gisse" wrote in message
... Mitch Raemsch aka BURT wrote: Light is blueshifted on its way into gravity. Light is redshifted on its way out. Pentcho Valev wrote: Sometimes even Einsteinians explain this correctly: http://www.blazelabs.com/f-g-gcont.asp ... .... since even Einstein himself suggested in a paper "On the Influence of Gravitation on the Propagation of Light," Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911, that the speed of light might vary with the gravitational potential. One can find his calculation in his paper. The result is c'= c(1+V/c^2) where V is the gravitational potential relative to the point where the measurement is taken. 1+V/c^2 is also known as the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT FACTOR." Pentcho Valev wrote: Pound and Rebka found experimentally that the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT obeys the equation f'= f(1+V/c^2), which is consistent with Einstein's 1911 equation c'= c(1+V/c^2) and the textbook formula: --- frequency = (speed of light)/(wavelength) "Max Keon" wrote: In 1960, using the Mossbauer effect, Pound and Rebka succeeded in measuring the extremely small change (only about 1 part in 4e+14) of frequency of the ** y-rays ** emitted by a sample of radioactive iron when it was moved from the bottom of the tower to the top of a tower 74 feet high. The observed frequency change agreed with the relativity prediction within 5%." According to your equation f'= f(1+V/c^2) V(a) and V(b) for the tower base and tower top is: G = 6.67E-11 M = 5.97E+24 ra = 6378000 Tower base radii rb = 6378023 Tower top radii (+23 meters (74 feet) high) Va = G * M / ra ^ 2 = 9.7888378648735791276869837432118 Vb = G * M / rb ^ 2 = 9.7887672652959533370556770582427 [Eric Gisse] Potential energy is GM/r, idiot. You wrote down force. [snip remaining] [hanson] It is not very clear what Potential *energy* Eric is talking about and for that matter what force. When I look at Eric's equation of Potential energy = GM/r where presumably G = L^3*M^-1*T^-2 then Eric's Potential energy becomes a phenomenon, an event, with the dimension of L^2/T^2, a squared velocity, which is as mysterious as are Keon's "y-rays"... but both of which appear to produce a mutual benefit for the mysterious term of "idiot". Thanks for the laughs, guys... ahahahaha... ahahahanson |
#3
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Pound Rebka
ahahaha... ahahahaha... Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo,
who Dunno aka sa_ge at comcast.net wrote in message ... Mitch Raemsch aka BURT wrote: Light is blueshifted on its way into gravity. Light is redshifted on its way out. Pentcho Valev wrote: Sometimes even Einsteinians explain this correctly: http://www.blazelabs.com/f-g-gcont.asp ... .... since even Einstein himself suggested in a paper "On the Influence of Gravitation on the Propagation of Light," Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911, that the speed of light might vary with the gravitational potential. One can find his calculation in his paper. The result is c'= c(1+V/c^2) where V is the gravitational potential relative to the point where the measurement is taken. 1+V/c^2 is also known as the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT FACTOR." Pentcho Valev wrote: Pound and Rebka found experimentally that the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT obeys the equation f'= f(1+V/c^2), which is consistent with Einstein's 1911 equation c'= c(1+V/c^2) and the textbook formula: --- frequency = (speed of light)/(wavelength) "Max Keon" wrote: In 1960, using the Mossbauer effect, Pound and Rebka succeeded in measuring the extremely small change (only about 1 part in 4e+14) of frequency of the ** y-rays ** emitted by a sample of radioactive iron when it was moved from the bottom of the tower to the top of a tower 74 feet high. The observed frequency change agreed with the relativity prediction within 5%." According to your equation f'= f(1+V/c^2) V(a) and V(b) for the tower base and tower top is: G = 6.67E-11 M = 5.97E+24 ra = 6378000 Tower base radii rb = 6378023 Tower top radii (+23 meters (74 feet) high) Va = G * M / ra ^ 2 = 9.7888378648735791276869837432118 Vb = G * M / rb ^ 2 = 9.7887672652959533370556770582427 [Eric Gisse] wrote in message Potential energy is GM/r, idiot. You wrote down force. [snip remaining] [hanson] It is not very clear what Potential *energy* Eric is talking about and for that matter what force. When I look at Eric's equation of Potential energy = GM/r where presumably G = L^3*M^-1*T^-2 then Eric's Potential energy becomes a phenomenon, an event, with the dimension of L^2/T^2, a squared velocity, which is as mysterious as are Keon's "y-rays"... but both of which appear to produce a mutual benefit for the mysterious term of "idiot". Thanks for the laughs, guys... ahahahaha... ahahahanson [Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno quipped]: which makes the term V/c^2 adimensional, as it should http://www.dkimages.com/discover/pre...5/35092155.JPG [hanson] .... ahahahaha... Eric clearly stated **energy**, and not some other item, issue or term, which makes you, Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno really look like an "adimensional"... http://www.dkimages.com/discover/pre...5/35092155.JPG .... crackpot, in addition to all the other characteristics that he Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno has posted and attributed to himself lately , such as when he, the "fa_ge-le", aka sa_ge at comcast.net said that he was a http://eldoradoclub.net/images/wacko-lg_1_.gif and to boot also insists that he is http://devilskitchen-chilli.co.uk/Liquid%20Stoopid.jpg and then he proudly claims to be a http://www.movv.com/prvupload/upload...etard_stfu.jpg and adds one more confession to his own wrap sheet stating that he is a http://politicalpartypoop.com/wp-con.../08/retard.jpg and presenting himself in grand style in/as http://www.ntoddblog.org/photos/atriots/asshat.jpg and reveals a picture of himself to reassert that he Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno has realized that he is the http://shop.abc.net.au/multimediaite...s/5/500188.jpg .... but most of all the mysterious term of "idiot". will benefit you, Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno the most. ..... ahahaha... Thanks for the laughs... ahahaha... ahahahanson |
#4
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Pound Rebka
On Jan 4, 6:18 pm, "hanson" STILL says:
ahahaha... ahahahaha... Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno aka sa_ge at comcast.net wrote in message ... ... Mitch Raemsch aka BURT wrote: Light is blueshifted on its way into gravity. Light is redshifted on its way out. Pentcho Valev wrote: Sometimes even Einsteinians explain this correctly: http://www.blazelabs.com/f-g-gcont.asp ... .... since even Einstein himself suggested in a paper "On the Influence of Gravitation on the Propagation of Light," Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911, that the speed of light might vary with the gravitational potential. One can find his calculation in his paper. The result is c'= c(1+V/c^2) where V is the gravitational potential relative to the point where the measurement is taken. 1+V/c^2 is also known as the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT FACTOR." Pentcho Valev wrote: Pound and Rebka found experimentally that the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT obeys the equation f'= f(1+V/c^2), which is consistent with Einstein's 1911 equation c'= c(1+V/c^2) and the textbook formula: --- frequency = (speed of light)/(wavelength) "Max Keon" wrote: In 1960, using the Mossbauer effect, Pound and Rebka succeeded in measuring the extremely small change (only about 1 part in 4e+14) of frequency of the ** y-rays ** emitted by a sample of radioactive iron when it was moved from the bottom of the tower to the top of a tower 74 feet high. The observed frequency change agreed with the relativity prediction within 5%." According to your equation f'= f(1+V/c^2) V(a) and V(b) for the tower base and tower top is: G = 6.67E-11 M = 5.97E+24 ra = 6378000 Tower base radii rb = 6378023 Tower top radii (+23 meters (74 feet) high) Va = G * M / ra ^ 2 = 9.7888378648735791276869837432118 Vb = G * M / rb ^ 2 = 9.7887672652959533370556770582427 [Eric Gisse] wrote in message Potential energy is GM/r, idiot. You wrote down force. [snip remaining] [hanson] It is not very clear what Potential *energy* Eric is talking about and for that matter what force. When I look at Eric's equation of Potential energy = GM/r where presumably G = L^3*M^-1*T^-2 then Eric's Potential energy becomes a phenomenon, an event, with the dimension of L^2/T^2, a squared velocity, which is as mysterious as are Keon's "y-rays"... but both of which appear to produce a mutual benefit for the mysterious term of "idiot". Thanks for the laughs, guys... ahahahaha... ahahahanson [Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno quipped]: which makes the term V/c^2 adimensional, as it should http://www.dkimages.com/discover/pre...5/35092155.JPG [hanson] .... ahahahaha... Eric clearly stated **energy**, and not some other item, issue or term, which makes you, Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno really look like an "adimensional"... http://www.dkimages.com/discover/pre...5/35092155.JPG .... crackpot, in addition to all the other characteristics that he Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno has posted and attributed to himself lately , such as when he, the "fa_ge-le", aka sa_ge at comcast.net said that he was a http://eldoradoclub.net/images/wacko-lg_1_.gif and to boot also insists that he is http://devilskitchen-chilli.co.uk/Liquid%20Stoopid.jpg and then he proudly claims to be a http://www.movv.com/prvupload/upload...etard_stfu.jpg and adds one more confession to his own wrap sheet stating that he is a http://politicalpartypoop.com/wp-con.../08/retard.jpg and presenting himself in grand style in/as http://www.ntoddblog.org/photos/atriots/asshat.jpg and reveals a picture of himself to reassert that he Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno has realized that he is the http://shop.abc.net.au/multimediaite...s/5/500188.jpg .... but most of all the mysterious term of "idiot". will benefit you, Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno the most. ..... ahahaha... Thanks for the laughs... ahahaha... ahahahanson |
#5
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Pound Rebka
"John C. Polasek" wrote in message ... On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:42:29 GMT, "hanson" wrote: "Eric Gisse" wrote in message ... Mitch Raemsch aka BURT wrote: Light is blueshifted on its way into gravity. Light is redshifted on its way out. Pentcho Valev wrote: Sometimes even Einsteinians explain this correctly: http://www.blazelabs.com/f-g-gcont.asp ... ... since even Einstein himself suggested in a paper "On the Influence of Gravitation on the Propagation of Light," Annalen der Physik, 35, 1911, that the speed of light might vary with the gravitational potential. One can find his calculation in his paper. The result is c'= c(1+V/c^2) where V is the gravitational potential relative to the point where the measurement is taken. 1+V/c^2 is also known as the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT FACTOR." Pentcho Valev wrote: Pound and Rebka found experimentally that the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT obeys the equation f'= f(1+V/c^2), which is consistent with Einstein's 1911 equation c'= c(1+V/c^2) and the textbook formula: --- frequency = (speed of light)/(wavelength) "Max Keon" wrote: In 1960, using the Mossbauer effect, Pound and Rebka succeeded in measuring the extremely small change (only about 1 part in 4e+14) of frequency of the ** y-rays ** emitted by a sample of radioactive iron when it was moved from the bottom of the tower to the top of a tower 74 feet high. The observed frequency change agreed with the relativity prediction within 5%." According to your equation f'= f(1+V/c^2) V(a) and V(b) for the tower base and tower top is: G = 6.67E-11 M = 5.97E+24 ra = 6378000 Tower base radii rb = 6378023 Tower top radii (+23 meters (74 feet) high) Va = G * M / ra ^ 2 = 9.7888378648735791276869837432118 Vb = G * M / rb ^ 2 = 9.7887672652959533370556770582427 [Eric Gisse] Potential energy is GM/r, idiot. You wrote down force. [snip remaining] [hanson] It is not very clear what Potential *energy* Eric is talking about and for that matter what force. When I look at Eric's equation of Potential energy = GM/r where presumably G = L^3*M^-1*T^-2 then Eric's Potential energy becomes a phenomenon, an event, with the dimension of L^2/T^2, a squared velocity, which is as mysterious as are Keon's "y-rays"... but both of which appear to produce a mutual benefit for the mysterious term of "idiot". Thanks for the laughs, guys... ahahahaha... ahahahanson [John C. Polasek] I'll just add this so you don't make such an ass of yourself. The potential energy MG/4 is equal to V^2/2 terminal velocity if dropped from infinity to R. John Polasek [hanson] ..... ahahahahaha... But John, it is not clear here who that "you" really is, because **energy**, potential of otherwise, is defined as a dimensional identify of M*L^2/T^2 and hence MG/(4 or n) will have the dimension of M * L^3*M^-1*T^-2 = L^3/T^2 which is NOT any velocity^2. --- v^2 has a L^2/T^2 dimension. So, John do clarify your statement or you may fall victim to the same queer mentation as does Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno aka sa_ge at comcast.net who has posted and attributed to himself lately , that he, the "fa_ge-le", was a http://eldoradoclub.net/images/wacko-lg_1_.gif and to boot also insists that he is http://devilskitchen-chilli.co.uk/Liquid%20Stoopid.jpg and then he proudly claims to be a http://www.movv.com/prvupload/upload...etard_stfu.jpg and adds one more confession to his own wrap sheet stating that he is a http://politicalpartypoop.com/wp-con.../08/retard.jpg and presenting himself in grand style in/as http://www.ntoddblog.org/photos/atriots/asshat.jpg and reveals a picture of himself to reassert that he Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno has realized that he is the http://shop.abc.net.au/multimediaite...s/5/500188.jpg Thanks for the laughs... ahahaha... ahahahanson |
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Pound Rebka
Hi Homo Dono,
you got caught with your pants down again, ******ing, as ususal: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.p...8277c5351b9462 Thanks for the laughs....ahahaha... AHAHAHA... ahahahahanson |
#7
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Pound Rebka
Hi Homo Dono,
you got caught with your pants down again, ******ing, as ususal: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.p...8277c5351b9462 Thanks for the laughs....ahahaha... AHAHAHA... ahahahahanson |
#8
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Pound Rebka
ahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... ahahahaha... ahahahaha...
He gave me the microphone again to repeat to the word that *** sa_ge at comcast.net, the fa_ge-le aka *** Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno has characterized himself as a (1) crackpot, (2) a Stoopid (3) wacko, and being (4) a retard of a (5) Super retard who dons his (6) asshat and who is (7) "releasing his imbecile within".... ahahaha... *** Karandash aka "Dono", the Homo, who Dunno has scoured the web to find himself ...and he did.... 7 times: (1) http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/855/35092155.JPG (2) http://devilskitchen-chilli.co.uk/Liquid%20Stoopid.jpg (3) http://eldoradoclub.net/images/wacko-lg_1_.gif (4) http://politicalpartypoop.com/wp-con.../08/retard.jpg (5) http://www.movv.com/prvupload/upload...etard_stfu.jpg (6) http://www.ntoddblog.org/photos/atriots/asshat.jpg (7) http://shop.abc.net.au/multimediaite...mages/5/500188 Now "Dono", we all "Do know"... and thanks for the laughs. ahahaha... ahahahanson PS: Shall I attach that wonderful cv of yours, above, to ever post you make? I think I will do you that favor... ahahaha.... |
#9
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Pound Rebka
"Dono" wrote that he is very happy over this:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.p...559824a304ee54 and he handed me the microphone again to spread his word. |
#10
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Pound Rebka
"Eric Gisse" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 2:36 am, "Max Keon" wrote: Pentcho Valev wrote: --- Pound and Rebka found experimentally that the GRAVITATIONAL REDSHIFT obeys the equation f'= f(1+V/c^2), which is consistent with Einstein's 1911 equation c'= c(1+V/c^2) and the textbook formula frequency = (speed of light)/(wavelength) This is the blurb given in "Basic Physics 2 by S.L.Martin and A.K.Connor", (1960+ vintage), briefly describing the purpose of the Pound and Rebka experiment. "In 1958 an effect was discovered by Mossbauer, working in U.S.A and known as the Mossbauer effect, which enabled very tiny frequency differences to be detected and measured. In 1960, using the Mossbauer effect, Pound and Rebka succeeded in measuring the extremely small change (only about 1 part in 4e+14) of frequency of the y-rays emitted by a sample of radioactive iron when it was moved from the bottom of the tower to the top of a tower 74 feet high. The observed frequency change agreed with the relativity prediction within 5%." According to your equation f'= f(1+V/c^2) V(a) and V(b) for the tower base and tower top is: G = 6.67E-11 M = 5.97E+24 ra = 6378000 Tower base radii rb = 6378023 Tower top radii (+23 meters (74 feet) high) Va = G * M / ra ^ 2 = 9.7888378648735791276869837432118 Vb = G * M / rb ^ 2 = 9.7887672652959533370556770582427 Potential energy is GM/r, idiot. You wrote down force. I was under the impression that potential energy _increases_ with altitude? GM/r does the opposite. Anything at rest at the Earth's center of mass can't have potential energy, surely? Perhaps you were referring to something other than gravitational potential, although it wouldn't seem to be relevant for this case. Anyway, here are the updated figures according to your correction. According to f'= f(1+V/c^2) V(a) and V(b) for the tower base and tower top is: G = 6.67E-11 M = 5.97E+24 ra = 6378000 Tower base radii rb = 6378023 Tower top radii (+23 meters (74 feet) high) Va = G * M / ra = 62433207.902163687676387582314205 Vb = G * M / rb = 62432982.759704692190667860558044 f = 1.4e+21 f'= f(1+Va/c^2) = 1400000000971183234033.6573638549 f'= f(1+Vb/c^2) = 1400000000971179731817.6285451882 The difference is now 3502216 added cycles in 1.4e+21 cycles, which is near enough to what is observed. Previously: A 1.4e+21 hz gamma ray generates a frequency change of only 1 part per 1.4e+21 cycles, when the observed change was 1 part in 4e+14 cycles. That's 3.5 million times less than observed. That's a long way short of the 5% accuracy claim, isn't it? I knew my reasoning was in error somewhere, that's why I posted it. Your help is appreciated. But getting back to the other point of the post. What did the experiment prove? All E/M radiation was necessarily created by a charge interaction somewhere, and that's a mandatory requirement for gamma rays (and neutrinos) as well. So why do gamma ray frequencies decrease with altitude while the frequencies of most other natural oscillators increase? e.g. Atomic clocks, spectral line absorption and emission. And even Big Ben. Now don't nod off here because you really need to pay attention. This formula G*M/(r*c^2) gives the clock slowing rate per second according to radius, while f'= f*(1+V/c^2) , which becomes f' = f*(1+(G*M/r)/c^2) , gives the frequency change rate per radius from a gravity source. But there is a catch22 in that the two formulae contradict each other. These are the results from the two formulae, for the Earth surface radius and for a (e.g.) GPS satellite radius. f = 1.4e21 r = 6378000 6.937e-10 sec/sec clock speed slowing rate. 1.400000000971183e21 cycles per second. r = 26570000 1.665e-10 sec/sec clock speed slowing rate. 1.400000000233128e21 cycles per second. Notice that the clock speed slowing rate has decreased in the second set of figures, meaning that time is running faster. Then notice that frequency has also decreased, meaning that time is running slower. That's a very obvious contradiction, and it comes about because gamma rays are created in an entirely different environment to the natural oscillators listed above, an environment which is in complete isolation, as it would be if it took place in a black hole. The inner workings of a proton-neutron only appear in the conversion between proton and neutron states. That's a fair indication that the proton-neutron is a black hole. The divergence angle of a ray emerging through what would be the smallest possible opening in a black hole event horizon will also be close to zero, giving rise to the illusion of a particle transmission of light. But whatever the case, what has been proven is that, in the realm where a gamma ray is created, the natural interaction rate alters according to f'= f(1+V/c^2). I really can't grumble about that because it's what I would expect anyway. ----- Max Keon |
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