Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

I found this interesting piece of information in the Wikipedia article
concerning the history of the Polaris SLBM: "During its
reconstruction in 1957-1961, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi
received four launchers for Polaris missiles. However, despite
successful tests held in 1961-1962, most of the missiles were never
shipped to Italy, for political reasons. The Italian Navy still holds
a number of Polaris missiles in operational conditions, ready to use
if necessary, stored in an airtight facility in the La Spezia
Arsenal."

A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.

Thanks and fair skies and following seas to you all . . .

John

On Jun 27, 6:58*am, John wrote:
I found this interesting piece of information in the Wikipedia article
concerning the history of the Polaris SLBM: *"During its
reconstruction in 1957-1961, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi
received four launchers for Polaris missiles. However, despite
successful tests held in 1961-1962, most of the missiles were never
shipped to Italy, for political reasons. The Italian Navy still holds
a number of Polaris missiles in operational conditions, ready to use
if necessary, stored in an airtight facility in the La Spezia
Arsenal."

A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? *It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). *I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.

Thanks and fair skies and following seas to you all . . .

John

As far as I know the Italian Navy never received any Polaris. However,
a missile was developed locally for deployment on submarines as well
as the Garibaldi, before being abandoned. This was the still largely
classified Alfa missile http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm

ha scritto:
On Jun 27, 6:58 am, John wrote:
I found this interesting piece of information in the Wikipedia article
concerning the history of the Polaris SLBM: "During its
reconstruction in 1957-1961, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi
received four launchers for Polaris missiles. However, despite
successful tests held in 1961-1962, most of the missiles were never
shipped to Italy, for political reasons. The Italian Navy still holds
a number of Polaris missiles in operational conditions, ready to use
if necessary, stored in an airtight facility in the La Spezia
Arsenal."

A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.

Thanks and fair skies and following seas to you all . . .

John

As far as I know the Italian Navy never received any Polaris. However,
a missile was developed locally for deployment on submarines as well
as the Garibaldi, before being abandoned. This was the still largely
classified Alfa missile http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm

I'm also Italian and can confirm this, but knowing well the Italian
Navy's mindset I cannot be 100% sure that there's absolutely zero IRBM
*vectors* (aside that a conventional-tipped IRBM will be a rather big
white elephant....)

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

dott.Piergiorgio wrote:

As far as I know the Italian Navy never received any Polaris. However,
a missile was developed locally for deployment on submarines as well
as the Garibaldi, before being abandoned. This was the still largely
classified Alfa missile http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm

I'm also Italian and can confirm this, but knowing well the Italian
Navy's mindset I cannot be 100% sure that there's absolutely zero IRBM
*vectors* (aside that a conventional-tipped IRBM will be a rather big
white elephant....)

If Italy had decided to deploy Polaris (or been allowed to) would the
warheads have been under "dual-key" US/Italian control like with the
Thors in Britain, and the Jupiters in Turkey? Or was the intention to go
the French route, and develop a missile system that was entirely under
Italian control?

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:

If Italy had decided to deploy Polaris (or been allowed to) would the
warheads have been under "dual-key" US/Italian control like with the
Thors in Britain, and the Jupiters in Turkey? Or was the intention to go
the French route, and develop a missile system that was entirely under
Italian control?

The UK's Polaris missiles carried independently-developed warheads
under (theoretically) independent control, even if there was bugger-all
chance of them being used without the White House saying so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassau_agreement

According to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear...United_Kingdom
"Currently, British Trident commanders are able to launch their missiles
without authorisation, whereas their American colleagues cannot."

Fevric J. Glandules wrote:
Pat Flannery wrote:


If Italy had decided to deploy Polaris (or been allowed to) would the
warheads have been under "dual-key" US/Italian control like with the
Thors in Britain, and the Jupiters in Turkey? Or was the intention to go
the French route, and develop a missile system that was entirely under
Italian control?


The UK's Polaris missiles carried independently-developed warheads
under (theoretically) independent control, even if there was bugger-all
chance of them being used without the White House saying so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassau_agreement


IIRC, in the case of the Thor IRBMs deployed in Britain, it was
literally a "Dual Key" set-up; they couldn't be launched unless a
authorized US military officer entered a part of the launch sequence
unknown to the British. A US officer was stationed at the Thor bases in
case the need arose.
It would have been more difficult with a SLBM; you would have had to
carry a US officer on each sub (one sees the concept of a wild flip-side
of Dr. Strangelove here, where a lone US officer is trying to talk the
insane commander of a British sub out of nuking Paris because they have
insulted British beer as the first step in replacing it with cheap wine.)

According to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear...United_Kingdom
"Currently, British Trident commanders are able to launch their missiles
without authorisation, whereas their American colleagues cannot."


Oh, that makes me feel comfortable...just like the bicycle locks used to
arm British nuclear weapons:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/7097101.stm
Our bombs, I'll have you know, took both a PAL...and a big screwdriver. :-D

Pat

Fevric J. Glandules wrote:
[snip]


According to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear...United_Kingdom
"Currently, British Trident commanders are able to launch their missiles
without authorisation, whereas their American colleagues cannot."

Or putting it another way. The Uk nuclear weapon launch order has
already been given. London just keeps sending the "wait until you
can see the whites of their eyes" order. The world's biggest timebomb.

Andrew Swallow

"Polaris missiles were supplied by the United States and were flight
tested from the Garibaldi during the mid-1960's."

At that point in time, CGN Long Beach wasn't to receive them.

Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
wrote:
:
:As far as I know the Italian Navy never received any Polaris. However,
:a missile was developed locally for deployment on submarines as well
:as the Garibaldi, before being abandoned. This was the still largely
:classified Alfa missile http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm
:

Uh, you should have read your own cite a bit more carefully:

"Polaris missiles were supplied by the United States and were flight
tested from the Garibaldi during the mid-1960's."

I must precise that the Garibaldi here is the earlier CL/CLG (CLGB ?)
and not the current CVL/CVE.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

John wrote:
A little googling seems to have verifyed that the work to modify the
Garibaldi, and that at least test shot was made, but . . . Does anyone
know if the Italian Navy still possesses these missiles? It would
seem that they would be very difficult to near impossible to ever make
ready for use given the 60’s-era vintage of their systems (where do
you even find parts). I would also wonder about the potential for
slumping in the 45year old solid rocket motors.


Since Garibaldi has been decommissioned in 1971 and scrapped in 1972,
this would leave any missiles without a launch platform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian...issile_cruiser
According to that Wikipedia article, no Polaris missiles were ever
delivered to Italy, and since Italy signed the NNPT treaty, they are out
of the nuclear missile business.
Although somewhat difficult to understand, there's a discussion of the
topic he http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/foru...p?topic=2808.0
It sounds like Italy was getting ready to nuke Yugoslavia if Tito tried
anything funny.
That Yugoslavia, Romania, and Switzerland had atomic weapon programs was
news to me:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm

Pat