#11
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Worthy of survival
Ken from Chicago wrote:
FIREFLY, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA: TNS and much of Asimovian fiction would dispute the inherent boredom of a human-only universe. These universes are Business As Usual on a grander scale. But human struggle and failure has always been interesting. Why do newspapers sell? Because they contain bad news. Bob Kolker |
#12
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Worthy of survival
"Charles Buckley" wrote in message ... DaffyDuck wrote: On 2006-10-02 21:35:54 -0700, "Steven L." said: But now we know they don't. Well, we do not *know* they don't, and there's still other candidates out there, including Europe ("Attempt no landing there..."), and the old standby being Mars - which harbors some serious hopes for there being life there, as it has seasons, it has sub-surface water, etc.. One thing I do like about the BSG universe, is that the only life within it, is our protagonists' - no funky aliens, no odd lifeforms (albeit we're about to find a sick basestar, which may be an interesting arc) Agreed on what 'turns on' people to spacetravel, and that if we find no life, there won't be much glory and glamor in going out into space. Do you really think that people watching the daily life of any colony in history was particularly interesting? Most people just went about their lives in the same daily fashion they did back wherever they came from. From a 400 year separation from Jamestown, we read about all the historical events that occurred there. Grand events of seemingly major implications, but look closer.. Landing in May. They build a fort halfheartedly to start with. Sail around a bit. Plant some crops. People start dying a couple months later. There is an attack. For every historical event, there are months of drudgery and daily chores to wade through. The *idea* of colonization was the glory and glamor. The actual work was the same boring blue collar stuff that is most people's lives. 99.9% of the people of England did not immigrate to the colonies and a largish fraction of those whose did were not exactly going for the glory and glamor. Maybe it is time to quit thinking of space colonization as some mainstream thing and start considering it is the same sort of niche market as pretty much every single activity out there. People talk about the popularity of certain activities (say NASCAR, for instance) and yet when you look at the numbers of people interested in it, you find that 9 out of 10 people in America have zero interest in NASCAR. People will go into space because of their own reasons. I think the newer crop (Firefly and BSG) are very good in that they are reflective of the times as was TOS. But, in this one important way, I think Dwayne errs. People who want to go into space want to go into space. That is irrespective of whatever entertainment there is. TOS occurred at a time when space travel was mainstream news. It tapped into that wave. It was part of the fabric. B5 and BSG are operating in a time when space is *not* really mainstream news any longer. There is no great sense of wonder at seeing people go into space. It only makes sense that the current art would reflect a workmanship relationship with space. It is moving to the point where it is shifting from dreaming about a far out future to where it is becoming with people's reach to *do* the things they are seeing. I don't think it is an accident that the major sci-fi shows currently on air now featuring space travel and the most recent shows that developed a cult following have a technological base that is barely beyond the current technical base of our society. There is a convergence here. EVERYTHING'S BETTER IN SPACE! Okay, I'm thinking more of ... A montage, montage, gotta see a montage! http://youtube.com/watch?v=sh9nE4OQ8ww Tho I prefer high-tech space colony. Bunch of tents, even with space ships, kinda boring. -- Ken from Chicago |
#13
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Worthy of survival
"Stephen Fairchild" wrote in message ... Bob Kolker wrote: Steven L. wrote: If Mars also turns out to be lifeless, it will be hard to get Americans excited even about sending humans there. Ironically, science fiction has raised the bar for the average American: Alien life is now almost taken for granted, and that's what I think that most folks to hear about: Where are the alien life forms? Nowhere nearby. Almost certainly not in our solar system. But that is not sufficient reason not to go exploring. They may be other more relevent issues such as costs and payback. The Spaniards (for example) did not go a-sailing over the main just to see what was on the Other Side. They had gold and converts to Catholicism in mind. Those were the coins of their realm. The itch to travel and explore may be motivated the captains and crews, but it was potential profit and plunder that motivated the monarchs to fund them. If the tax payers are going to be mugged to fund space explorations they have every right to asked about the rewards and payback. Apart from mining the asteroid belt I can't see much plunder out there. -- Stephen Fairchild That's why you should have ROBOTIC space exploration and space mining. Tho later that could lead to human space COLONIZATION. -- Ken from Chicago |
#14
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Worthy of survival
"Steven L." wrote in message ink.net... The big difference between the Star Trek universe and our real universe is that the Star Trek universe assumes there is life everywhe Life forms ranging from far more primitive than our own, to far more advanced. I notice a long time ago that most (not all) foreign Sci Fi series (Dr. Who is an exception) do not have "aliens". BLAKES SEVEN had only one and only in one episode. RED DWARF had no actual aliens, but mutants and left over genetic experiments, all originally from earth. STAR COPS had none, but had one episode that centered around an artifact found on Mars that later turned out to be fake. |
#15
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Worthy of survival
Ken from Chicago wrote:
Stephen Fairchild That's why you should have ROBOTIC space exploration and space mining. Tho later that could lead to human space COLONIZATION. Forget it. Except for some orbiting habitats there is no place in the solar system for us off our own planet. Long and short: The solar system is a bad neighborhood except for our planet. Bob Kolker |
#16
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Worthy of survival
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:44:12 +0100, Stephen Fairchild
wrote: Bob Kolker wrote: Steven L. wrote: If Mars also turns out to be lifeless, it will be hard to get Americans excited even about sending humans there. Ironically, science fiction has raised the bar for the average American: Alien life is now almost taken for granted, and that's what I think that most folks to hear about: Where are the alien life forms? Nowhere nearby. Almost certainly not in our solar system. But that is not sufficient reason not to go exploring. They may be other more relevent issues such as costs and payback. The Spaniards (for example) did not go a-sailing over the main just to see what was on the Other Side. They had gold and converts to Catholicism in mind. Those were the coins of their realm. The itch to travel and explore may be motivated the captains and crews, but it was potential profit and plunder that motivated the monarchs to fund them. If the tax payers are going to be mugged to fund space explorations they have every right to asked about the rewards and payback. Apart from mining the asteroid belt I can't see much plunder out there. ??? No imagination.... -- Roy L |
#17
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Worthy of survival
In article 2006100300011516807-daffyduck@spammersdiemacdotcom, DaffyDuck wrote:
On 2006-10-02 21:35:54 -0700, "Steven L." said: But now we know they don't. Well, we do not *know* they don't, and there's still other candidates out there, including Europe ("Attempt no landing there..."), and the old standby being Mars - which harbors some serious hopes for there being life there, as it has seasons, it has sub-surface water, etc.. You meant to say Europa One thing I do like about the BSG universe, is that the only life within it, is our protagonists' - no funky aliens, no odd lifeforms (albeit we're about to find a sick basestar, which may be an interesting arc) Agreed on what 'turns on' people to spacetravel, and that if we find no life, there won't be much glory and glamor in going out into space. |
#18
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Worthy of survival
In article , Charles Buckley wrote:
DaffyDuck wrote: On 2006-10-02 21:35:54 -0700, "Steven L." said: But now we know they don't. Well, we do not *know* they don't, and there's still other candidates out there, including Europe ("Attempt no landing there..."), and the old standby being Mars - which harbors some serious hopes for there being life there, as it has seasons, it has sub-surface water, etc.. One thing I do like about the BSG universe, is that the only life within it, is our protagonists' - no funky aliens, no odd lifeforms (albeit we're about to find a sick basestar, which may be an interesting arc) Agreed on what 'turns on' people to spacetravel, and that if we find no life, there won't be much glory and glamor in going out into space. Do you really think that people watching the daily life of any colony in history was particularly interesting? Most people just went about their lives in the same daily fashion they did back wherever they came from. From a 400 year separation from Jamestown, we read about all the historical events that occurred there. Grand events of seemingly major implications, but look closer.. Landing in May. They build a fort halfheartedly to start with. Sail around a bit. Plant some crops. People start dying a couple months later. There is an attack. For every historical event, there are months of drudgery and daily chores to wade through. The *idea* of colonization was the glory and glamor. The actual work was the same boring blue collar stuff that is most people's lives. 99.9% of the people of England did not immigrate to the colonies and a largish fraction of those whose did were not exactly going for the glory and glamor. Maybe it is time to quit thinking of space colonization as some mainstream thing and start considering it is the same sort of niche market as pretty much every single activity out there. People talk about the popularity of certain activities (say NASCAR, for instance) and yet when you look at the numbers of people interested in it, you find that 9 out of 10 people in America have zero interest in NASCAR. People will go into space because of their own reasons. I think the newer crop (Firefly and BSG) are very good in that they are reflective of the times as was TOS. But, in this one important way, I think Dwayne errs. People who want to go into space want to go into space. That is irrespective of whatever entertainment there is. TOS occurred at a time when space travel was mainstream news. It tapped into that wave. It was part of the fabric. B5 and BSG are operating in a time when space is *not* really mainstream news any longer. There is no great sense of wonder at seeing people go into space. Speak for your freakin self laddie! It only makes sense that the current art would reflect a workmanship relationship with space. It is moving to the point where it is shifting from dreaming about a far out future to where it is becoming with people's reach to *do* the things they are seeing. I don't think it is an accident that the major sci-fi shows currently on air now featuring space travel and the most recent shows that developed a cult following have a technological base that is barely beyond the current technical base of our society. There is a convergence here. |
#19
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Worthy of survival
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:17:34 -0500, Bob Kolker
wrote: Ken from Chicago wrote: Stephen Fairchild That's why you should have ROBOTIC space exploration and space mining. Tho later that could lead to human space COLONIZATION. Forget it. Except for some orbiting habitats there is no place in the solar system for us off our own planet. Long and short: The solar system is a bad neighborhood except for our planet. But Mars, at a minimum, can be terraformed. That strikes me as an enterprise potentially even more interesting and rewarding than the discovery and colonization of the New World. Plus there are the possibilities for O'Neill colonies and subsurface settlements on less hospitable bodies like the moon, Mercury, Ceres, etc. Life expands to fill the available niches -- i.e., sources of energy and raw materials. Technology makes extraterrestrial bodies available niches: there are raw materials and energy in abundance, especially once we have useful fusion power. Are the challenges of space really greater relative to our technology than living in the high arctic was to Stone Age Eskimos, or settling Iceland and Greenland was to the Vikings, or colonizing Madagascar was to the ancient Indonesians? -- Roy L |
#20
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Worthy of survival
Steven L. wrote: Kweeg wrote: "Space Cadet" wrote in message ups.com... Here is an interesting article by our old friend Dwayne A. Day, about Link between Science Fiction and the Space Program and his interpretation of SF impact on Space exploration, particularly Star Trek's and whether or not if the new crop of SF shows will be able to have a similar effect in the future http://www.thespacereview.com/article/716/1 Thanks for the link...I've also wondered the same... The big difference between the Star Trek universe and our real universe is that the Star Trek universe assumes there is life everywhe Life forms ranging from far more primitive than our own, to far more advanced. But so far, in the real world, we haven't detected any life beyond the earth. Not even a bacterium. Without alien life forms, Star Trek would be boring as hell. There haven't been many science-fiction stories written about a lifeless universe, because it's devoid of romance and adventure. And that's why real space travel just doesn't excite people anymore. We haven't found anything out there except lifeless worlds. When Star Trek was first conceived by Roddenberry in 1964, some scientists still hoped that Mars might harbor some forms of life. Even as late as the 1980's, it was hoped that Saturn's moon Titan might harbor life also. But now we know they don't. And nobody gives a flying crap about shuttling to Low Earth Orbit to man an International Space Station. It's deep space missions to "seek out new life and new civilizations" that turn people on. So do I have your vote to send the ISS project, once completed, from red state Texas (JSC) to blue state Maryland (GSFC)? And let JSC the gallivant all over the universe. Let's set that up ASAP. If you want people to be as excited about space travel in the real world as they are about Star Trek, then we need to start planning to take a real "star trek" to actually "seek out new life, and new civilizations": Either a deep space mission, or vastly improved telescopic sensors, or vastly improved Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, or something else that will give us hope of finding life beyond the Earth. That might take 1000 years. Sorry that it might not happen in your lifetime. If Mars also turns out to be lifeless, it will be hard to get Americans excited even about sending humans there. Ironically, science fiction has raised the bar for the average American: Alien life is now almost taken for granted, and that's what I think that most folks to hear about: Where are the alien life forms? Well people have to realize that life and TV are not the same (and thank god for that as I see so much death on TV, that if it were that rampant in daily life I'd think I was in Iraq). Anyway, the point is that science fiction will always be more fantastic (overall, as single examples like Apollo are exceptions) than actual science and to the average layperson that is boring. Sorry about that! Go see a movie or read a book... Eric -- Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. |
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