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Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 2nd 12, 07:35 AM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
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Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
David Spain wrote:
Rick Jones wrote:
David Spain wrote:
Rick Jones wrote:
Sputnik was a hollowed-out nuclear weapon???


rick jones


Well it had the proper geometry...


A sphere was/is the proper geometry for the warhead on an ICBM?


Tisk, tisk; you said nuclear weapon, you did not say warhead...


;-)


And he certainly didn't say RV, which is something else again.


Seeing how spheres *were* used by the Soviet Union, I'd say that it is
a totally feasible geometry for the weapon, the warhead AND the RV.


I take it they don't let you do engineering or design work...


Open-minded thinkers who know what is feasible - instead of just doing
things out of habit - make better engineers and designers than those
who lack such attributes.


There is a difference between having an open mind and having a hole in
your head. *You are in the latter state, not the former.

You see, you like some control over where an RV comes down. *A sphere
is pure ballistic, which means the CEP for a Russian ICBM using a
spherical RV would have been even worse than what they managed (which
was pretty bad).

snip idiocy

You see, actually I AM a rocket scientist....

Engineer, actually, but that's a quibble.

And you are obviously no sort of engineer or scientist at all.


A person trained in science and logic would readily recognize the
fallacy of an ad-hominem rebuttal. (...let alone the lack of
persuasiveness of argument by insult.)

I could be a performance artist who has years of experience on stage
entertaining audiences (which I actually do) and that fact would do
nothing to refute the validity of any of the points I have presented
in this thread.

Now failing to recognize the distinction between a scientist versus an
engineer - or seeing such difference as "a quibble" is clearly lacking
understanding of the fundamental concept behind one, if not both of
these fields.

An engineer makes things. A scientist learns things.

That's as basic as it can be stated. HARDLY a quibble in the
difference. The term "rocket scientist" is a total misnomer. The
proper term is -rocket engineer-.

It might be helpful to achieve a common understanding of the most
basic ideas before going into explanations of how easy it would be for
an engineer to design a control system for a spherical-geometry RV.
Heck, even if the center of mass were not off-center, I could STILL
tell you how to control it. Even a kid who is a pitcher on a high
school baseball team could explain how to control the trajectory of a
sphere moving through the atmosphere. (Note: no engineering degree
required! Not even a single day of college.)

~ CT
  #22  
Old March 2nd 12, 05:19 PM posted to sci.space.history
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

Paul Madarasz wrote:
On Thu, 01 Mar 2012 10:25:50 -0500, David Spain
wrote, perhaps among other things:
Well getting one 1 out of 3 right ain't bad, esp. if you don't particularly
care where that weapon comes down....


"That's not my department, says Wernher von Braun."


I love Tom Leher....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

Somewhat prophetic that last verse???

Dave
  #23  
Old March 2nd 12, 06:06 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
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Posts: 554
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:


I never stated whether or not the Soyuz RV was a sphere. *My point was
that a sphere is a perfectly feasible geometry for an RV.


Only if you don't care about accuracy at all.


We are agreed that it is at least feasible.

~ CT



No rebuttals posted (as of yet, at least) have done anything to
convince me that a sphere is not a feasible shape for a nuke weapon,
warhead as well as an RV. *I remain in my certainty that they are.
And the Soviets went a long way to convince me of that.


That can only be because ignorant lunatics are beyond being educated.

snip bloviation

I repeat: *It's obvious that you know nothing at all about engineering
or science and nobody sane would allow you to ever design anything.

  #24  
Old March 2nd 12, 06:33 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
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Posts: 554
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:


An engineer makes things. *A scientist learns things.


Wrong.


You are certainly free to continue in your expressed belief in the
lack of distinction between these two fields.

Now if the objection to my statement is that engineers actually design
things, and they learn while designing, I could agree with that. I
would certainly be open to anyone else's best effort toward
encapsulating the essence of science versus engineering. That would
be an invitation for constructive discourse.

That's as basic as it can be stated. *HARDLY a quibble in the
difference. *The term "rocket scientist" is a total misnomer. *The
proper term is -rocket engineer-.


It might be helpful to achieve a common understanding of the most
basic ideas before going into explanations of how easy it would be for
an engineer to design a control system for a spherical-geometry RV.
Heck, even if the center of mass were not off-center, I could STILL
tell you how to control it. *Even a kid who is a pitcher on a high
school baseball team could explain how to control the trajectory of a
sphere moving through the atmosphere. *(Note: no engineering degree
required! *Not even a single day of college.)


You should read up on why the Russians didn't go with a spherical
reentry vehicle for Soyuz, since you think so much of them.

Please show a single ICBM RV that is spherical. *Funny how NOBODY who
actually designs and builds the things thinks that's a good idea,
isn't it?


I myself never suggested it was a good idea.

The idea of the ICBM itself, I question the rationality of. And this
understanding casts a shadow over how 'good an idea' the entire space
race was. It brought humanity to the brink of obliterating
ourselves. Of course, with the lack of civility shown in something as
simple as communication on a message board, there is an argument that
states that humanity is destined for such an end.

I myself much prefer the outlook that a critical mass will awaken from
the consequences of the damage we have caused on each other as well as
our surroundings, and that the future of humanity that we have to look
forward to is a harmonious one.

Now a great portion of my communications here have been toward
exposing fallacies in the 'fairy tale' version of space history that
is ubiquitous. An irony is that this standard version shares, or
perhaps more accurately, is motivated by a similar desire for a
positive future for humanity. Perhaps it matters little whether one
version is founded on myth and the other on fact.

What may be most important is that the vision is shared.

~ CT
  #25  
Old March 3rd 12, 01:07 AM posted to sci.space.history
Brad Guth[_3_]
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Posts: 15,175
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

On Mar 2, 9:33*am, Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:

Stuf4 wrote:
An engineer makes things. *A scientist learns things.


Wrong.


You are certainly free to continue in your expressed belief in the
lack of distinction between these two fields.

Now if the objection to my statement is that engineers actually design
things, and they learn while designing, I could agree with that. *I
would certainly be open to anyone else's best effort toward
encapsulating the essence of science versus engineering. *That would
be an invitation for constructive discourse.









That's as basic as it can be stated. *HARDLY a quibble in the
difference. *The term "rocket scientist" is a total misnomer. *The
proper term is -rocket engineer-.


It might be helpful to achieve a common understanding of the most
basic ideas before going into explanations of how easy it would be for
an engineer to design a control system for a spherical-geometry RV.
Heck, even if the center of mass were not off-center, I could STILL
tell you how to control it. *Even a kid who is a pitcher on a high
school baseball team could explain how to control the trajectory of a
sphere moving through the atmosphere. *(Note: no engineering degree
required! *Not even a single day of college.)


You should read up on why the Russians didn't go with a spherical
reentry vehicle for Soyuz, since you think so much of them.


Please show a single ICBM RV that is spherical. *Funny how NOBODY who
actually designs and builds the things thinks that's a good idea,
isn't it?


I myself never suggested it was a good idea.

The idea of the ICBM itself, I question the rationality of. *And this
understanding casts a shadow over how 'good an idea' the entire space
race was. *It brought humanity to the brink of obliterating
ourselves. *Of course, with the lack of civility shown in something as
simple as communication on a message board, there is an argument that
states that humanity is destined for such an end.

I myself much prefer the outlook that a critical mass will awaken from
the consequences of the damage we have caused on each other as well as
our surroundings, and that the future of humanity that we have to look
forward to is a harmonious one.

Now a great portion of my communications here have been toward
exposing fallacies in the 'fairy tale' version of space history that
is ubiquitous. *An irony is that this standard version shares, or
perhaps more accurately, is motivated by a similar desire for a
positive future for humanity. *Perhaps it matters little whether one
version is founded on myth and the other on fact.

What may be most important is that the vision is shared.

~ CT


Fred only shares the LLPOF version of modified space history.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
  #26  
Old March 3rd 12, 07:50 AM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 554
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:


I never stated whether or not the Soyuz RV was a sphere. *My point was
that a sphere is a perfectly feasible geometry for an RV.


Only if you don't care about accuracy at all.


We are agreed that it is at least feasible.


Feasible if you don't give a **** where or how hard it comes down,
perhaps. *But sane people care about those things.



No rebuttals posted (as of yet, at least) have done anything to
convince me that a sphere is not a feasible shape for a nuke weapon,
warhead as well as an RV. *I remain in my certainty that they are.
And the Soviets went a long way to convince me of that.


That can only be because ignorant lunatics are beyond being educated.


snip bloviation


I repeat: *It's obvious that you know nothing at all about engineering
or science and nobody sane would allow you to ever design anything.


Still don't see you offering any examples of anyone actually being
stupid enough to use a ROUND RV on a missile.


No one said anything about whether or not anyone had, or would like to
have a round rv. A Venn diagram to illustrate the distinction between
the realm of what is *feasible* versus the realm of what is actually
done would go a long way toward shedding light on what I said, versus
the meaning you persist in wanting to put on my words.

"I will fabricate a straw man, and then I will brilliantly reveal how
this man is made of straw."

~ CT



--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
*only stupid."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine

  #27  
Old March 3rd 12, 08:21 AM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
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Posts: 554
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:


An engineer makes things. *A scientist learns things.


Wrong.


You are certainly free to continue in your expressed belief in the
lack of distinction between these two fields.


You don't read any better than you think, do you? *I never said any
such thing.


(My first draft of that statement actually had the verbatim quote.
Then I removed the quote, thinking that I was being overly rigid, and
put it into my own words.)


Now if the objection to my statement is that engineers actually design
things, and they learn while designing, I could agree with that. *I
would certainly be open to anyone else's best effort toward
encapsulating the essence of science versus engineering. *That would
be an invitation for constructive discourse.


Define 'trade study' in the engineering sense.


I see little point in continuing this communication. You and I have
repeatedly failed to agree on the most basic of points.

And all of your points here are so far removed from the main points I
initiated this thread with. I came to this forum with the intent of
improving the state of space history. That was my goal in 2001. That
was my goal again here in 2012.

If you would like to show how these peripheral avenues you have
persisted in focusing on will (or even have the potential to) further
the sum total of understanding of space history, I may decide that
continuing this discussion would be a worthwhile investment of time.

I am very glad to know that there are many places on the internet that
did not exist in 2001 that are very productive places to make
contributions that help to advance the knowledge - and even wisdom -
of human society.

I will continue to follow, every so often, this corner of the
internet. Even in this decade, I find a morsel shared here that I am
interested in. I hope there are others who find the transcript I
shared in this thread to be interesting. Maybe more at some future
time than at the present. Paradigm shifts such as the one that Neil
DeGrasse Tyson is promoting take time.

~ CT


further loony bloviation elided

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
*territory."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * --G. Behn

  #28  
Old March 3rd 12, 04:19 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 554
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 wrote:

And all of your points here are so far removed from the main points I
initiated this thread with. *I came to this forum with the intent of
improving the state of space history. *That was my goal in 2001. *That
was my goal again here in 2012.


If you would like to show how these peripheral avenues you have
persisted in focusing on will (or even have the potential to) further
the sum total of understanding of space history, I may decide that
continuing this discussion would be a worthwhile investment of time.


I am very glad to know that there are many places on the internet that
did not exist in 2001 that are very productive places to make
contributions that help to advance the knowledge - and even wisdom -
of human society.


I will continue to follow, every so often, this corner of the
internet. *Even in this decade, I find a morsel shared here that I am
interested in. *I hope there are others who find the transcript I
shared in this thread to be interesting. *Maybe more at some future
time than at the present. *Paradigm shifts such as the one that Neil
DeGrasse Tyson is promoting take time.


Wow, you are just SO far up yourself....


I am open to the possibility that the source of the discord has been
on my side of the equation.

It is clear that the best course of action for me is to step back and
examine that.

~ CT


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
*only stupid."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine

  #29  
Old March 5th 12, 10:09 PM posted to sci.space.history
Dean
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Posts: 323
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

On Mar 2, 8:06*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Brad Guth wrote:
On Mar 1, 10:54*am, Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:


Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
David Spain wrote:
Rick Jones wrote:
David Spain wrote:
Rick Jones wrote:
Sputnik was a hollowed-out nuclear weapon???


rick jones


Well it had the proper geometry...


A sphere was/is the proper geometry for the warhead on an ICBM?


Tisk, tisk; you said nuclear weapon, you did not say warhead...


;-)


And he certainly didn't say RV, which is something else again.


Seeing how spheres *were* used by the Soviet Union, I'd say that it is
a totally feasible geometry for the weapon, the warhead AND the RV.


I take it they don't let you do engineering or design work...


Open-minded thinkers who know what is feasible - instead of just doing
things out of habit - make better engineers and designers than those
who lack such attributes.


Of course, as is repeatedly demonstrated on this forum, there are many
who will not hold such a view. *It is FAR more comfortable to keep
one's thought processes so restrained as to remain well within the
confines of the perceived 'box'.


...and if anyone comes along to challenge limited thinking, do not so
much as peek outside your box, for therein lies the discomfort.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
*truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Thomas Jefferson


(Well said, TJ.)


~ CT


Fred is master of his cozy box.


Fred wants all of us to fit into the exact same mainstream status-quo
box.


However, a large hollow sphere of plutonium is relatively harmless,
unless it contained a few tonnes of weaponized VX or something other
that's biologically lethal.


And this from the same man who raves about the dangers of MOX?

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
*only stupid."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine


Perhaps Brad would care to rub his hands over a plutonium sphere and
see if it has any ill effects on him.
  #30  
Old March 5th 12, 10:25 PM posted to sci.space.history
Brad Guth[_3_]
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Posts: 15,175
Default Space Race Driven By The Nuclear Threat - Now A Mainstream Understanding

On Mar 5, 1:09*pm, Dean wrote:
On Mar 2, 8:06*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:









Brad Guth wrote:
On Mar 1, 10:54*am, Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:


Stuf4 wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
David Spain wrote:
Rick Jones wrote:
David Spain wrote:
Rick Jones wrote:
Sputnik was a hollowed-out nuclear weapon???


rick jones


Well it had the proper geometry...


A sphere was/is the proper geometry for the warhead on an ICBM?


Tisk, tisk; you said nuclear weapon, you did not say warhead....


;-)


And he certainly didn't say RV, which is something else again.


Seeing how spheres *were* used by the Soviet Union, I'd say that it is
a totally feasible geometry for the weapon, the warhead AND the RV.


I take it they don't let you do engineering or design work...


Open-minded thinkers who know what is feasible - instead of just doing
things out of habit - make better engineers and designers than those
who lack such attributes.


Of course, as is repeatedly demonstrated on this forum, there are many
who will not hold such a view. *It is FAR more comfortable to keep
one's thought processes so restrained as to remain well within the
confines of the perceived 'box'.


...and if anyone comes along to challenge limited thinking, do not so
much as peek outside your box, for therein lies the discomfort.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
*truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Thomas Jefferson


(Well said, TJ.)


~ CT


Fred is master of his cozy box.


Fred wants all of us to fit into the exact same mainstream status-quo
box.


However, a large hollow sphere of plutonium is relatively harmless,
unless it contained a few tonnes of weaponized VX or something other
that's biologically lethal.


And this from the same man who raves about the dangers of MOX?


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
*only stupid."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine


Perhaps Brad would care to rub his hands over a plutonium sphere and
see if it has any ill effects on him.


A brief exposure isn't lethal or even all that problematic, as long as
you don't ingest any of it. It sure as hell isn't going to explode,
although it could be warm or even hot to the touch if there's enough
product density and mass to work with.

For example, use as a hollow but otherwise regulation mass (7.2 kg)
bowling ball would be doable, though I sure as hell wouldn't care to
sleep with it.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
 




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