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#11
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LBJ and space travel
"Jorge R. Frank" quoted:
'...'It's too bad,' said LBJ. 'We have this great capability, but instead of taking advantage of it, we'll probably just **** it away.'" Unfortunately, being President -- even a President who'd been riding the politics/policy of space hard since 1957 -- didn't help him appreciate the difference between a forced-growth, ultra-specialized "capability" [to get astronauts to the Moon for a few days at ~$2 billion 1960s dollars per head] and a capability that would matter (i.e., have the potential to grow on its own) once the space-race fever wore off. But hey, I'm not going to judge him too harshly for that. Far as I can tell, many space fans are still unclear on that distinction. Monte Davis http://montedavis.livejournal.com/ |
#12
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LBJ and space travel
On May 12, 8:02*am, " wrote:
On May 12, 2:40 am, Pat Flannery wrote: M wrote: I read in a book once that he commented to a space official at Huntsville or Michoud after seeing all of the Apollo Saturn infrastructure that "it was too bad that all of this will be ****ed away" after the Apollo Program ended. What else could you do with it? That's not the point, here, and that changes the subject. My direction is straightforward: what did LBJ (and his administration) say that indicated a lack of interest in space travel? It is not what he said but what he did. JFK made the commitment to the moon and LBJ made the commitment to Vietnam. Clearly as Apollo peaked and then subsided Vietnam was just still peaking before going away. We have Nixon to thank for the latter. |
#13
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LBJ and space travel
On May 12, 9:25*am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote: On Mon, 12 May 2008 01:40:47 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: M wrote: I read in a book once that he commented to a space official at Huntsville or Michoud after seeing all of the Apollo Saturn infrastructure that "it was too bad that all of this will be ****ed away" after the Apollo Program ended. What else could you do with it? You could build a giant space station (pretty pointless, as we found out with the *ISS). It's only pointless if you can't afford to get to it. *Which in fact would have been the case if we were constrained to Saturn. You're speaking in riddles again. Do you mean to say that we would not be able to afford Saturns today or that Saturns lack the means to get to ISS? And a simple answer of "yes" only adds to your inherent vagueness. |
#14
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LBJ and space travel
On May 12, 1:27*am, Pat Flannery wrote:
wrote: The question is: did I imagine that? *If I did not, can someone point me to where I can find the exact context and quote? This is also the guy who also said he "didn't want to go to sleep by the light of a communist Moon". Perfect politician. Yep, how LBJ got Earl Warren to head the commission to look into the death of JFK after Warren told him many times we would not do it and then eventually caved and did lead the commission proves your point about LBJ and his political prowess. Or, as someone once said: "A politician is someone who will lie to you...even when he doesn't have to." (was that Mark Twain?) I couldn't find it he http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Mark_Twain/ Eric |
#15
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LBJ and space travel
On May 13, 5:35*am, Monte Davis wrote:
"Jorge R. Frank" quoted: '...'It's too bad,' said LBJ. 'We have this great capability, but instead of taking advantage of it, we'll probably just **** it away.'" Unfortunately, being President -- even a President who'd been riding the politics/policy of space hard since 1957 -- didn't help him appreciate the difference between a forced-growth, ultra-specialized "capability" [to get astronauts to the Moon for a few days at ~$2 billion 1960s dollars per head] and a capability that would matter (i.e., have the potential to grow on its own) once the space-race fever wore off. But hey, I'm not going to judge him too harshly for that. Far as I can tell, many space fans are still unclear on that distinction. Monte Davishttp://montedavis.livejournal.com/ I can't help to compare the aspect of running the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon and that of spaceflight. When John Wesley Powell ran the Colorado for the first time it was on the govt. dime, specifically the USGS. Did anyone at that time bitch about how Powell's trip could have or should have spawned the commercial river running that started a good 50 years later and is boom business these days??!?? Hell no! Well, if NASA is the USGS of yesteryear and Neil Armstrong or maybe more approriately Alan Sheppard, is the John Wesley Powell equivalent, then I wonder if anyone said a thing about Powell's trip and how it should have been commerical or that it had ANY influence on the commercialization of river running which we actually have today but took a good long time? The point is that NASA and spaceflight has nothing to do with when and how the commercial spaceflight industry will start. If anything look at the space alliance and see how it charges its customers. Eric |
#16
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LBJ and space travel
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#17
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LBJ and space travel
On Tue, 13 May 2008 11:41:16 -0700 (PDT), in a place far, far away,
Eric Chomko made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: On May 12, 9:25*am, (Rand Simberg) wrote: On Mon, 12 May 2008 01:40:47 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: M wrote: I read in a book once that he commented to a space official at Huntsville or Michoud after seeing all of the Apollo Saturn infrastructure that "it was too bad that all of this will be ****ed away" after the Apollo Program ended. What else could you do with it? You could build a giant space station (pretty pointless, as we found out with the *ISS). It's only pointless if you can't afford to get to it. *Which in fact would have been the case if we were constrained to Saturn. You're speaking in riddles again. Do you mean to say that we would not be able to afford Saturns today or that Saturns lack the means to get to ISS? We decided in 1967 that we couldn't afford Saturns. That's why the Shuttle program was initiated. |
#18
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LBJ and space travel
Eric Chomko wrote:
It is not what he said but what he did. JFK made the commitment to the moon and LBJ made the commitment to Vietnam. Clearly as Apollo peaked and then subsided Vietnam was just still peaking before going away. We have Nixon to thank for the latter. If you really want to understand how the political leadership that supported the space program flourished then faded in that era, read "To the End of the Solar System" by James Dewar. See the review at http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1107/1 As Dewar pointed out, had Sen. Anderson and his colleagues been younger and in better health, things might have turned out differently as the early 1970's evolved. -- Dave Michelson |
#19
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LBJ and space travel
On 13 May, 22:26, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Tue, 13 May 2008 11:41:16 -0700 (PDT), in a place far, far away, Eric Chomko made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: On May 12, 9:25*am, (Rand Simberg) wrote: On Mon, 12 May 2008 01:40:47 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: M wrote: I read in a book once that he commented to a space official at Huntsville or Michoud after seeing all of the Apollo Saturn infrastructure that "it was too bad that all of this will be ****ed away" after the Apollo Program ended. What else could you do with it? You could build a giant space station (pretty pointless, as we found out with the *ISS). It's only pointless if you can't afford to get to it. *Which in fact would have been the case if we were constrained to Saturn. You're speaking in riddles again. Do you mean to say that we would not be able to afford Saturns today or that Saturns lack the means to get to ISS? We decided in 1967 that we couldn't afford Saturns. *That's why the Shuttle program was initiated. And which cost a lot more. - Ian Parker |
#20
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LBJ and space travel
On May 13, 5:26*pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote: On Tue, 13 May 2008 11:41:16 -0700 (PDT), in a place far, far away, Eric Chomko made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: On May 12, 9:25*am, (Rand Simberg) wrote: On Mon, 12 May 2008 01:40:47 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: M wrote: I read in a book once that he commented to a space official at Huntsville or Michoud after seeing all of the Apollo Saturn infrastructure that "it was too bad that all of this will be ****ed away" after the Apollo Program ended. What else could you do with it? You could build a giant space station (pretty pointless, as we found out with the *ISS). It's only pointless if you can't afford to get to it. *Which in fact would have been the case if we were constrained to Saturn. You're speaking in riddles again. Do you mean to say that we would not be able to afford Saturns today or that Saturns lack the means to get to ISS? We decided in 1967 that we couldn't afford Saturns. *That's why the Shuttle program was initiated. But as you and others have pointed out the shuttle being a RLV and the Saturns being ELVs, have the former really saved us anything, especially in terms of $$$? Had we continued with Saturns and not necessarily Vs, could we have improved on the design to the point that the ELVs, though seemingly more wasteful and certainly less enviro- friendly, at least in theory, could they have been cheaper in the long run? Eric |
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