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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.



 
 
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  #111  
Old July 10th 17, 10:40 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Robert Clark[_5_]
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Posts: 245
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On 7/10/2017 9:32 AM, Edward Prochak wrote:
On Saturday, July 8, 2017 at 9:04:04 PM UTC-4, Lofty Goat wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT), Edward Prochak
wrote:

... electric motors are much more complex than combustion motors....

What measure of complexity are you using?

--
Goat


This is in the context of 3-d printing. The mixture of materials
makes electric motors much more complex than combustion engines.
combustion engines are all metal.
electric motors have metal and insulating material.
That's the measure.
ed


you have low temp melting materials, adjacent to high temp melting
materials.

How do you print an insulated length of round wire from a normal direction
to its axis ? assume copper and teflon.

---


The possibility of 3D-printing insulated wiring could be tested by first
testing in plastics. Plastic 3D-printing does have the capability of
printing with different materials side by side:

How It's Used - Multi-Materials with PolyJet.
http://www.stratasys.com/solutions/a...al-3d-printing

The key point that needs to be tested is if there could be 3D-printed
multiple coils of a "wire" with one material inside the emulating the copper
with a different material on the outside emulating the insulation.


Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

  #112  
Old July 10th 17, 11:21 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
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Posts: 47
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:44:12 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 21:55:19 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

wrote:

Composites are widely used all over the place. Many of them the Chimp
probably thinks of as 'traditional materials'. Both concrete and
mortar are composite materials and we've been using that stuff since
the Romans. Composites of various types are used all over the place,
from piping to appliances to aircraft to construction materials.

Oh, good grief. I suppose you're going to tell me that a concrete
pump is a 3-D printer, too.

Hook it to the right controller and it is. I saw a youtube of someone
printing a kid's playcastle using a concrete pump device of some kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ5Elbvvr1M


Don't be an idiot. The thread is clearly about modern marvels, like
carbon fiber, not concrete. Geez, people turn intentionally stupid
when they run out of ideas (like leftists).


The word being used is 'composites'. Unlike you, I don't try to read
peoples' minds to discover that they don't really mean 'composites' at
all. I take them at their word and assume that if they mean 'carbon
fiber' they will say that rather than 'composites'.


Don't need to read anyone's mind but you do have to read the ****ing
thread! ...if you're able.
  #113  
Old July 10th 17, 11:22 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
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Posts: 47
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 17:31:57 -0000, wrote:

In sci.physics
wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 05:08:51 -0000,
wrote:

In sci.physics Greg Goss wrote:
wrote:


Marketing types certainly do. Consumers have always bought toasters
based on their looks. After all, the thousands of different designs
all do the same thing.

And all look about the same.

Not so much:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/437412182539227477/

For any given era they look pretty much the same to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=toas...w=1327&bih=868

You'd argue that every color is the same?

No, but most are chrome.

I haven't bought a chrome one in a long time. These days they all
have an outer plastic layer. The only chrome you see is less than an
inch around the slots/

In the link I gave above, most of the toasters shown are in fact chrome.


From 3/4 of a century ago, sure. Styles change and that's exactly the
point. The statement being refuted is that all toasters "look pretty
much the same", which is simply BS.


https://www.walmart.com/search/?quer...&typeahead=toa

What is currently on sale at Walmart, the majority of which are chrome or
stainless steel and are roughly a cubical box with 2 or 4 slots in the top.


More BS in an attempt to hide the smell from previous BS.

  #114  
Old July 10th 17, 11:22 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.electronics.design
Sегg io
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On 7/10/2017 4:40 PM, Robert Clark wrote:
On 7/10/2017 9:32 AM, Edward Prochak wrote:
On Saturday, July 8, 2017 at 9:04:04 PM UTC-4, Lofty Goat wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT), Edward Prochak
wrote:

... electric motors are much more complex than combustion motors....

What measure of complexity are you using?

--
Goat

This is in the context of 3-d printing. The mixture of materials
makes electric motors much more complex than combustion engines.
combustion engines are all metal.
electric motors have metal and insulating material.
That's the measure.
ed


you have low temp melting materials, adjacent to high temp melting
materials.

How do you print an insulated length of round wire from a normal
direction to its axis ? assume copper and teflon.

---


The possibility of 3D-printing insulated wiring could be tested by first
testing in plastics. Plastic 3D-printing does have the capability of
printing with different materials side by side:

How It's Used - Multi-Materials with PolyJet.
http://www.stratasys.com/solutions/a...al-3d-printing


The key point that needs to be tested is if there could be 3D-printed
multiple coils of a "wire" with one material inside the emulating the
copper with a different material on the outside emulating the insulation.


Bob Clark


a 3D printing rule, you can only print on something with the same or
higher melting point.

can't print a high melting point material onto a low melting point material.

that is a major limitation

  #115  
Old July 10th 17, 11:35 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,346
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In sci.physics wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 17:31:57 -0000,
wrote:

In sci.physics
wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 05:08:51 -0000,
wrote:

In sci.physics Greg Goss wrote:
wrote:


Marketing types certainly do. Consumers have always bought toasters
based on their looks. After all, the thousands of different designs
all do the same thing.

And all look about the same.

Not so much:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/437412182539227477/

For any given era they look pretty much the same to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=toas...w=1327&bih=868

You'd argue that every color is the same?

No, but most are chrome.

I haven't bought a chrome one in a long time. These days they all
have an outer plastic layer. The only chrome you see is less than an
inch around the slots/

In the link I gave above, most of the toasters shown are in fact chrome.

From 3/4 of a century ago, sure. Styles change and that's exactly the
point. The statement being refuted is that all toasters "look pretty
much the same", which is simply BS.


https://www.walmart.com/search/?quer...&typeahead=toa

What is currently on sale at Walmart, the majority of which are chrome or
stainless steel and are roughly a cubical box with 2 or 4 slots in the top.


More BS in an attempt to hide the smell from previous BS.


Blazingly obvious to the most casual observer than has viewed the URL's,
of which there now has been two.

--
Jim Pennino
  #116  
Old July 11th 17, 12:44 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

wrote:

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:44:12 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 21:55:19 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

wrote:

Composites are widely used all over the place. Many of them the Chimp
probably thinks of as 'traditional materials'. Both concrete and
mortar are composite materials and we've been using that stuff since
the Romans. Composites of various types are used all over the place,
from piping to appliances to aircraft to construction materials.

Oh, good grief. I suppose you're going to tell me that a concrete
pump is a 3-D printer, too.

Hook it to the right controller and it is. I saw a youtube of someone
printing a kid's playcastle using a concrete pump device of some kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ5Elbvvr1M

Don't be an idiot. The thread is clearly about modern marvels, like
carbon fiber, not concrete. Geez, people turn intentionally stupid
when they run out of ideas (like leftists).


The word being used is 'composites'. Unlike you, I don't try to read
peoples' minds to discover that they don't really mean 'composites' at
all. I take them at their word and assume that if they mean 'carbon
fiber' they will say that rather than 'composites'.


Don't need to read anyone's mind but you do have to read the ****ing
thread! ...if you're able.


And when you do you will find they use the word 'composites' and not
'carbon fiber'.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #117  
Old July 11th 17, 12:49 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,sci.electronics.design,rec.arts.sf.science
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On 7/10/2017 4:40 PM, Robert Clark wrote:
On 7/10/2017 9:32 AM, Edward Prochak wrote:
On Saturday, July 8, 2017 at 9:04:04 PM UTC-4, Lofty Goat wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT), Edward Prochak
wrote:

... electric motors are much more complex than combustion motors....

What measure of complexity are you using?

--
Goat

This is in the context of 3-d printing. The mixture of materials
makes electric motors much more complex than combustion engines.
combustion engines are all metal.
electric motors have metal and insulating material.
That's the measure.
ed


you have low temp melting materials, adjacent to high temp melting
materials.

How do you print an insulated length of round wire from a normal
direction to its axis ? assume copper and teflon.

---


The possibility of 3D-printing insulated wiring could be tested by first
testing in plastics. Plastic 3D-printing does have the capability of
printing with different materials side by side:

How It's Used - Multi-Materials with PolyJet.
http://www.stratasys.com/solutions/a...al-3d-printing
The key point that needs to be tested is if there could be 3D-printed
multiple coils of a "wire" with one material inside the emulating the
copper with a different material on the outside emulating the insulation.


Bob Clark


a 3D printing rule, you can only print on something with the same or
higher melting point.

can't print a high melting point material onto a low melting point
material.

that is a major limitation


---


Could lay down the metal, then help it cool by blowing cold gas over it,
then lay down the insulation, etc. Some types of insulation such as silicone
rubber have a melting point of 300 C. Another possibility, is that in order
for a material to melt, not only does the temperature have to reach the
melting point but a quantity of heat called the "heat of fusion" has to be
supplied to it for it to undergo the phase change from solid to liquid. For
instance what's done with high performance rocket engines such as the
SSME's, which operate above their melting point, is that the heat reaching
the combustion chamber walls is constantly drawn away by cold fuel
circulating around the walls, so this heat of fusion is not delivered to the
walls.

Still another possibility is a recent discovery of high temperature nanotube
rubber:

Nanotube rubber stays stretchy at extreme temperatures.
Dec 2, 2010
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/...e-temperatures


Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

  #118  
Old July 11th 17, 12:52 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 16:44:09 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:44:12 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 21:55:19 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

wrote:

Composites are widely used all over the place. Many of them the Chimp
probably thinks of as 'traditional materials'. Both concrete and
mortar are composite materials and we've been using that stuff since
the Romans. Composites of various types are used all over the place,
from piping to appliances to aircraft to construction materials.

Oh, good grief. I suppose you're going to tell me that a concrete
pump is a 3-D printer, too.

Hook it to the right controller and it is. I saw a youtube of someone
printing a kid's playcastle using a concrete pump device of some kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ5Elbvvr1M

Don't be an idiot. The thread is clearly about modern marvels, like
carbon fiber, not concrete. Geez, people turn intentionally stupid
when they run out of ideas (like leftists).


The word being used is 'composites'. Unlike you, I don't try to read
peoples' minds to discover that they don't really mean 'composites' at
all. I take them at their word and assume that if they mean 'carbon
fiber' they will say that rather than 'composites'.


Don't need to read anyone's mind but you do have to read the ****ing
thread! ...if you're able.


And when you do you will find they use the word 'composites' and not
'carbon fiber'.


Obviously you aren't able.
  #119  
Old July 11th 17, 04:32 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Greg Goss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 169
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

Tauno Voipio wrote:

On 10.7.17 07:15, Greg Goss wrote:


(My Ford hybrid has two electric motors and the gas engine. I am
having trouble finding a good overview of the transmission, but it
seems to be based on a differential concept.)


So has my Lexus. It is similar to the Toyota Prius scheme,
which is pretty well described in the Net.

However, Ford may have patent problems with Toyota, or they
may hava a licensing agreement.


I was told that the entire engine and transmission scheme was licenced
from Toyota. I sometimes call it a "Ford Prius V"
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
  #120  
Old July 11th 17, 06:49 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
David Mitchell[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:

Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet?

Yes. I do.

If any significant number of items in your house are fabricated, it makes sense
to use as few raw materials as possible, so, for example, it would make sense to
honeycomb the inside of a knife handle, since it would still be strong enough,
and would allow you to keep a gram or two of material "in the pot" for other
projects.

Ditto everything you make.

Nonsense; the items in one's house are based on price not how elegantly
it was produced.

It makes no sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle as it would
add no functionality and just increase the price.


What price?

The manufacturing cost which increases the retail sales price at the store.

It would reduce both the time to fabricate and feedstock used, albeit at the
cost of slightly more complex software.

Or you could injection mold it, as most knife handles are, for a fraction
of the manufacturing cost of the honyecomb nonsense.

What do you think the manufacturing cost of fabrication is?
- Feedstock, most of which is, and can be, recycled,

Cost recovery for most materials is trivial.

- Power, minimal,

For 3D metal printing, lots of power.

- Cost of the unit, divided by its expected lifetime, multiplied by time to print?

Babble.

Not really, it's called amortisation, in this case of the cost of the fabricator.
"The process of reducing, or accounting for, an amount over a period according
to a plan."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amortization



These are all very small.

For techniques such as molding, yes.

And for mature fabrication technology.

I'm looking at a mature fabrication economy - when you don't buy most things
you fabricate them.

Pure fantasy.

Name-calling isn't particularly useful in a discussion.

It is not name calling, it is my opinion of the concept of people fabricating
their own things.

I'd justify my claim (that most people will be fabricating most things) by
noting that when almost any technology becomes cheap enough, it becomes
ubiquitous, and I'd cite computers, automobiles and printers as examples.

Milling machines, drill presses and lathes are quite cheap, especially when
compared to metal 3D printers, and are available at your local Harbor Freight
store.

How many people do you know that own any of the above?

Apples and oranges, they are nowhere as flexible as mature fabricator technology
would be, nor as easy to use.

Obviously you have never seen a N/C milling machine in action nor payed
for raw stock.


*paid

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.


That you have no idea how things are made in the real world.


Not so much a point, as a meta-point.
If you have something to say, say it. With numbers, if you can.

;
Even making bread is more difficult than simply selecting a file, loading
feedstock and pressing a button.

Obviously you have never seen a real 3D printer in action nor have you
ever made bread.


Done both; what's your point?
As I keep having to explain, I'm talking about *mature* fabrication technology.


What do you concider "mature fabrication technology"?

The way you are talking I would think that would be a Star Trek replicator.


Nope. Nothing I've described is beyond the pale. My starting point is 1 gram
per second of a single material. It's a fairly low bar but it allows one to
think about the societal and economic ramifications in a fairly plausible way.



Besides, millions of people "make their own stuff" every day, although it's
primarly digital content these days.

Otherwise know as trash, SPAM, and utter nonsense.


Irrelevant.


OK, what "stuff" would people be making at home?


Jewellry, utilities, tools, gadgets.

 




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