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NASA Studying Russian 12-month Plan



 
 
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  #12  
Old April 21st 04, 03:31 AM
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Default NASA Studying Russian 12-month Plan


"Dave Fowler"
(Russian spaceflight with no Russian cosmonauts onboard!).


Heh heh....for $20 or $40 million they can deal with that.


  #13  
Old April 21st 04, 03:37 AM
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Default NASA Studying Russian 12-month Plan

Jim - If you can, find out how many Soyuz are in inventory and how many
are in work....and their completion dates. I have a hunch that they are
low on vehicles. Thx.


  #16  
Old April 21st 04, 06:29 AM
EAC
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Default NASA Studying Russian 12-month Plan

"JimO" writes:
Any progress on NASA's studying
the Russian proposal for the next ISS
crew to stay up for 12 months?

From what i can hear, there's
a major internal debate over this
idea -- go for it, or be cautious.


jeff findley wrote in message ...
I find some of the comments (in your article) by NASA astronauts very
disturbing. They make it sound like they wouldn't consider taking
that long of a mission. If that's the case, perhaps NASA needs to
"clean house" very soon. If we aren't flying astronauts now that are
willing to perform long duration missions, how do we ever expect to
get to Mars?


Correct. Though the question that one need to ask is... is it right to
send those people out there that long?

I find it amazing that none of the Human Rights organizations object
to long term space missions, but then again, HR organizations are made
to pressure organizations and countries, and not made to help humans.
Of course, I'm sure that if their boss told them to pressure/harass
NASA or any other space organization because cruel treatment to
astronauts/cosmonauts/taikonauts/and so on, they will do so.

By the way, the longest record for long stay hold by Mir is 437 days,
done by Valeri Polyakov, and he was quite all right when he got back
despite his stay in orbit and his quite moderate age (52 years old).

http://www.airspacemag.com/asm/mag/supp/jj96/supp1.html

However it should be noted that Valeri gets constant supplies, regular
and almost instaneous communication, within short distance of Earth
and capable of going back to Earth at almost anytime, and have a big
view of Earth ("Your infatuation with this planet is irrational.").

So... While a long stay on a space station orbiting on has been done
without a quite unhealthy effect, a trip to Mars might be different.
It also should be noted that long stay breaking records till now are
only done aboard Mir, and not aboard the ISS. Maybe someone wanted to
set a new record aboard the ISS too?



Anyway. If one want to have astronauts up there for quite a long time
and they don't want to, there's one way to do so.

Trick them.

Just send them up there, tell them that it's only for a few months,
then later on after a few months, ask them to stay up there for a few
more months, and again, and again, so on till the desire amount of
time needed is fulfilled or they threaten to mutiny or about to gone
insane.


If there really are medical issues with flights this long, wouldn't it
be prudent to find out about them a.s.a.p.?


If there are medical issues with flight this long, shouldn't it be no
one is allowed to do so?

If this does turn out to
be the case, the solution could be an engineering one. You split your
ship into two parts, separated by a long cable, and spin the thing for
the trip to and from Mars.


I don't know if this way is preferable, since that it will require the
spacecraft to spin around while traveling. Then there's the fact that
people tend to forget, that spacecrafts are travelling at a high speed
and that space is NOT empty, where's the deflector dish?

And also the physical illness of long term stay in space are not also
due the lack of gravity influences or lack of gravity-like influences.

Of course, physical problems isn't the only thing, since there're also
mental and social problems with people being separated from their
community so long.

If it turns out such a solution is
necessary, it would be nice to know about this as far in advance as
possible so prototype designs can be built and tested in LEO.

Jeff

  #17  
Old April 21st 04, 06:29 AM
EAC
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Default NASA Studying Russian 12-month Plan

Doug... wrote in message ...
Yeah -- I half-expected to see a line like "NASA consultant Bob Haller
said, 'We're never going to fly anyone for that long -- it's an
invitation to disaster! Hell, just going into space is too risky. We
should just sit and shove our thumbs up our own asses and let countries
who have no respect for my definition of 'safety' risk THEIR necks
exploring space."


Actually, getting to space is WAY TOO risky. What person in a right
mind would sit in a vehicle with oversized firecrackers strapped to
it? What person in a right mind would stay in cans for months, even up
to a year?

But seriously, there does seem to be a bad rash of chicken-little
thinking going on here. If Chiao doesn't want to be away from his
family for a whole year, **** him -- find one of the astronauts who
doesn't mind and give the flight to him/her.


Or... Maybe send his whole family up there with him? Astronauts always
wish that they got their family with them. Maybe the start of space
tourism should start with astronauts taking their whole family or at
least some members of their family with them.

But then again, there's the "Swiss Family Robinson in Space"

If the doctors are playing
chicken little, find doctors who can judge based on the facts and not
their "gut feelings" on the subject.


'Gut feeling' is what keep us safe from doing unnecessary things.
Actually, all of us have gut feelings of NOT getting into a rocket and
blast off. Now whether this is good or bad, it's up for one to decide
by oneself.

There's also some truths to be know, they are 'someone don't know
everything' and 'there are somethings that are meant to be left
unknown'.

Then again, America is becoming a gutless society whose members would
rather sit in locked homes in terror that some bearded monkey might fly
an airliner into their neighborhood


Er.... I don't think that Uncle Sam would want to do that, or would
he?

http://www.uni-marburg.de/anatomie/l.../uncle-sam.gif

Or maybe is this bearded monkey instead?

http://www.savethemales.ca/osama.gif

Oh well... It doesn't matter, both serves the same master anyway, and
both acted only as a mere publicity tool while the real mastermind
actually done all the work,

http://www.savethemales.ca/251102.html

Or maybe it was a bunch of monkeys playing around with remote
controlled aircrafts?

http://geocities.com/mknemesis/homerun.html

than go out and live their lives --
so this decision doesn't surprise me in the least.


Doubtful, since Americans are still doing their everyday lives, though
recently they are sure been terrorized by the news, corporate actions,
organizations actions, and governments actions.

Doug

  #18  
Old April 21st 04, 08:25 AM
Anthony Frost
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Default NASA Studying Russian 12-month Plan

In message
"JimO" wrote:

In principle, couldn't qualified ESA 'Soyuz commanders' such as Reiter or
Haignere be the commander?


Are the ESA astronauts trained up as full Soyuz commanders? I understood
they were only return commanders, trained to undock and land but not
rendevous and docking.

Anthony

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| kill all the butterflies |
  #19  
Old April 21st 04, 02:57 PM
jeff findley
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Default NASA Studying Russian 12-month Plan

(EAC) writes:

jeff findley wrote in message ...
I find some of the comments (in your article) by NASA astronauts very
disturbing. They make it sound like they wouldn't consider taking
that long of a mission. If that's the case, perhaps NASA needs to
"clean house" very soon. If we aren't flying astronauts now that are
willing to perform long duration missions, how do we ever expect to
get to Mars?


Correct. Though the question that one need to ask is... is it right to
send those people out there that long?


It certainly is the right thing to do, unless we want to deny the
overriding human desire to explore. Note that throughout history,
exporers on (and off) ocean going vessels had to endure similar
psychological conditions, yet this never seemed to stop these
missions.

You'll find no shortage of volunteers. The fact that some of NASA's
current astronauts, originally selected to fly shuttle and LEO space
station missions, don't want to fly longer than six months isn't too
surprising. Typical shuttle missions are on the order of one to two
weeks, which is the duration of mission that many of the current
astronauts thought they would fly.

All that really needs to be done is make it clear to the current set
of astronauts that missions *will* get longer and if they aren't
comfortable with that, maybe it's time for them to hang up the space
helmet and look for other work.

Further astronaut selection, if it's really necessary, should focus on
finding people who are psychologically fit for this type of separation
from "home". There are *many* professions where this is necessary.

I find it amazing that none of the Human Rights organizations object
to long term space missions, but then again, HR organizations are made
to pressure organizations and countries, and not made to help humans.
Of course, I'm sure that if their boss told them to pressure/harass
NASA or any other space organization because cruel treatment to
astronauts/cosmonauts/taikonauts/and so on, they will do so.


I can't believe this pansy opinion. Again, there are many jobs where
separation from "home" for extended periods of time is expected, yet
the Human Rights organizations don't seem to be going after operations
at the South Pole base because of this.

For good examples of how to deal with the psychological issues of long
term separation from "home", go talk to the Navy. They've been doing
this sort of thing for as long as they've existed.

By the way, the longest record for long stay hold by Mir is 437 days,
done by Valeri Polyakov, and he was quite all right when he got back
despite his stay in orbit and his quite moderate age (52 years old).

http://www.airspacemag.com/asm/mag/supp/jj96/supp1.html

However it should be noted that Valeri gets constant supplies, regular
and almost instaneous communication, within short distance of Earth
and capable of going back to Earth at almost anytime, and have a big
view of Earth ("Your infatuation with this planet is irrational.").


Again, talk to the Navy. When you're deployed on a nuclear sub
(e.g. one with missiles), you're similarly cut off from the earth.
You don't even have windows on a sub.

So... While a long stay on a space station orbiting on has been done
without a quite unhealthy effect, a trip to Mars might be different.
It also should be noted that long stay breaking records till now are
only done aboard Mir, and not aboard the ISS. Maybe someone wanted to
set a new record aboard the ISS too?


Certainly there is a difference. It means NASA has to be careful
about the type of astronauts they pick for long term missions. It's
clear from the comments of some of the current astronauts that there
are some in the astronaut office that lack "the right stuff" for
extended missions.

Anyway. If one want to have astronauts up there for quite a long time
and they don't want to, there's one way to do so.

Trick them.

Just send them up there, tell them that it's only for a few months,
then later on after a few months, ask them to stay up there for a few
more months, and again, and again, so on till the desire amount of
time needed is fulfilled or they threaten to mutiny or about to gone
insane.


This is absolutely stupid. Just make it clear to them that they're
not getting future assignments because the missions are longer.
Perhaps there will still be some shorter duration missions to assemble
lunar and Mars craft in LEO, but those won't get them any glory.

If there really are medical issues with flights this long, wouldn't it
be prudent to find out about them a.s.a.p.?


If there are medical issues with flight this long, shouldn't it be no
one is allowed to do so?


Again, this is a pansy attitude. Take a look at the profession of
deep sea divers. There is a great risk to their health, yet there are
always people willing to do the job for the right pay.

If this does turn out to
be the case, the solution could be an engineering one. You split your
ship into two parts, separated by a long cable, and spin the thing for
the trip to and from Mars.


I don't know if this way is preferable, since that it will require the
spacecraft to spin around while traveling.


Since most of the trip to and from Mars would otherwise be spent in
micro-gravity, what's the problem? You do your burn to set up your
transfer orbit, then spin the vehicle. If you have to do a mid-course
correction, stop the spin, do the correction, then spin it up again.

Then there's the fact that
people tend to forget, that spacecrafts are travelling at a high speed
and that space is NOT empty, where's the deflector dish?


Exactly how is this risk different for a spinning versus a
non-spinning craft?

And also the physical illness of long term stay in space are not also
due the lack of gravity influences or lack of gravity-like influences.


And exactly what would that be? Other than the radiation dosage,
which can be managed with a proper spacecraft design, what other
issues are there?

Of course, physical problems isn't the only thing, since there're also
mental and social problems with people being separated from their
community so long.


Again, talk to the Navy. I'm sure the submariners would be happy to
know that you think their jobs put them in so much psychological
peril and are implying that they can't handle it. If this were really
the problem you think it is, the Navy wouldn't be able to staff their
boats.

Jeff
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If it says "This is not spam!", it's surely a lie.
 




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