Alarming binocular experiment

Here's a simple subjective test on the value of binocular viewing I tried it
recently with my 15x70 Barskas (no doubt suggested here before, nothing new
under the stars):

1. Observe an object or area of sky for a while using binocular vision.
2. Immediately observe the same object with your dominant eye only, e.g.
look through left eyepiece with your right eye, cyclops telescope-style,
with your left eye free.
3. Rub your eyes and wonder if you've suddenly been flash blinded by a green
laser, or it's just clouded over.
4. Involuntarily consider the implications of this result for your
binoviewerless telescope
5. Check prices of binoviewers and pairs of ep's
6. Panic
7. Rationalise the effect as a transient trick of the eye/mind
8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.

Mark

8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.

9. Realize that a binoviewer splits the light in half...

jon

(Jon Isaacs) wrote:

8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.

9. Realize that a binoviewer splits the light in half...

10. Start pricing up binoscopes.

11. Faint.


Tim
--
This is not my signature.

Jon Isaacs wrote:
8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.


9. Realize that a binoviewer splits the light in half...

Unless you are one of those critical observer types who rejects the
Nagler eyepiece design for its impact on light transmission, this will
not matter at all. The views with a binoviewer are much more enjoyable
than the views in the same scope using one eye only, and they appear
equally (or at the very least similarly) bright in my experience with
the TeleVue BinoVue. (But, then, I'm not a "critical" observer. I just
like the view to "please" me. Aahhh, sweet.)

It's also my experience that objects appear larger with the use of two
eyes. Illusion or no, who cares?. It's a wonderful illusion.

8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.

Beware the dark side..."if it's more expensive, it MUST be better"
jc



--
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/jc_atm/

I have used two binoviewers on my 22" Starmaster and I really wanted to like
them. But each time, I noticed that the image without the binoviewer was
significantly more sharp. We looked at bright globulars and nebulae, and I
couldn't shake the feeling.

The first time was using a Televue unit, and I asked the owner about it and
she said that's part of the deal. The second time it was a Zeiss, and I
didn't dare tell the owner what I thought because he was very proud of his
very expensive piece of equipment. However, two other friends said they
thought the image in that Zeiss were less sharp than a single 16mm Nagler-2,
also.

Did I just get unlucky twice? It's hard to believe, but let me know. A
friend in our club just got a Denk but I haven't tried it yet (it's well
below freezing up here).

-Astrosetz
www.astrosetz.com
www.ncsf.info



"Stephen Paul" wrote in message
...
Jon Isaacs wrote:
8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.


9. Realize that a binoviewer splits the light in half...

Unless you are one of those critical observer types who rejects the
Nagler eyepiece design for its impact on light transmission, this will
not matter at all. The views with a binoviewer are much more enjoyable
than the views in the same scope using one eye only, and they appear
equally (or at the very least similarly) bright in my experience with
the TeleVue BinoVue. (But, then, I'm not a "critical" observer. I just
like the view to "please" me. Aahhh, sweet.)

It's also my experience that objects appear larger with the use of two
eyes. Illusion or no, who cares?. It's a wonderful illusion.

The binoviewer's main virtue, is the ability to overcome anomalies in
the eye, by presenting the image data to both eyes and allowing the
brain to integrate.

Like stacking two CCD images.

Just about every piece of equipment made, intends to solve a specific
problem, with as little negative impact as is possible on the rest. Then
there's competition.

Nobody claimed that a binoviewer is sharper for those among us with
"good" eyes. But believe me, when you have floaters blocking an an oval
or a festoon on Jupiter, having that second eye kick in with the image
detail is a major benefit, even if it is comes at the cost of "sharpness".

As I indicated, if you're the type who complains about a Nagler
incurring a duller image to acheive a wider field of view, then the
binoviewer will just be one more dissapointment.

My solution to these problems, is to take advantage of other optical
principals. For example, if a 9mm Nagler T6 seems to dim the image in an
8" scope over a 9mm Ortho, then stuff the 9mm Nagler into a larger
aperture scope, with better optical quality. Problem solved.

If the sharpness of a binoviewer is a problem, then use lower power. A
sharp 180x two eyed integrated image of Jupiter's ovals and festoons is
better than a sharp 250x one eyed image of Juputers belts, with the
ovals and festoons parked behind a floater.

-sp

Jeff Setzer wrote:
I have used two binoviewers on my 22" Starmaster and I really wanted to like
them. But each time, I noticed that the image without the binoviewer was
significantly more sharp. We looked at bright globulars and nebulae, and I
couldn't shake the feeling.

The first time was using a Televue unit, and I asked the owner about it and
she said that's part of the deal. The second time it was a Zeiss, and I
didn't dare tell the owner what I thought because he was very proud of his
very expensive piece of equipment. However, two other friends said they
thought the image in that Zeiss were less sharp than a single 16mm Nagler-2,
also.

Did I just get unlucky twice? It's hard to believe, but let me know. A
friend in our club just got a Denk but I haven't tried it yet (it's well
below freezing up here).

-Astrosetz
www.astrosetz.com
www.ncsf.info



"Stephen Paul" wrote in message
...

Jon Isaacs wrote:

8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.


9. Realize that a binoviewer splits the light in half...

Unless you are one of those critical observer types who rejects the
Nagler eyepiece design for its impact on light transmission, this will
not matter at all. The views with a binoviewer are much more enjoyable
than the views in the same scope using one eye only, and they appear
equally (or at the very least similarly) bright in my experience with
the TeleVue BinoVue. (But, then, I'm not a "critical" observer. I just
like the view to "please" me. Aahhh, sweet.)

It's also my experience that objects appear larger with the use of two
eyes. Illusion or no, who cares?. It's a wonderful illusion.

John Carruthers wrote:
8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.


Beware the dark side..."if it's more expensive, it MUST be better"
jc

When it comes to oculars, I have more money tied up in my F4.8 Dob with
one eye, than I do with my F9 refractor using two.

Paracorr, Pans and Nags. vs. BinoVue, Plossls and Orthos.

I suspect the "bino-viewer effect" will be more pronounced and better if
the user has nearly equal vision in both eyes. I have 20/15 in my right
eye, and 20/40 + astigmatism in my left eye. I rarely bother with
binoveiwers because most don't have enough eye relief to use with
glasses, and the owner's probably wouldn't appreciate me futzing with
their settings so both eyes are focused equally.

Stephen Paul wrote:
The binoviewer's main virtue, is the ability to overcome anomalies in
the eye, by presenting the image data to both eyes and allowing the
brain to integrate.

Like stacking two CCD images.

Just about every piece of equipment made, intends to solve a specific
problem, with as little negative impact as is possible on the rest. Then
there's competition.

Nobody claimed that a binoviewer is sharper for those among us with
"good" eyes. But believe me, when you have floaters blocking an an oval
or a festoon on Jupiter, having that second eye kick in with the image
detail is a major benefit, even if it is comes at the cost of "sharpness".

As I indicated, if you're the type who complains about a Nagler
incurring a duller image to acheive a wider field of view, then the
binoviewer will just be one more dissapointment.

My solution to these problems, is to take advantage of other optical
principals. For example, if a 9mm Nagler T6 seems to dim the image in an
8" scope over a 9mm Ortho, then stuff the 9mm Nagler into a larger
aperture scope, with better optical quality. Problem solved.

If the sharpness of a binoviewer is a problem, then use lower power. A
sharp 180x two eyed integrated image of Jupiter's ovals and festoons is
better than a sharp 250x one eyed image of Juputers belts, with the
ovals and festoons parked behind a floater.

-sp

Jeff Setzer wrote:

I have used two binoviewers on my 22" Starmaster and I really wanted
to like
them. But each time, I noticed that the image without the binoviewer was
significantly more sharp. We looked at bright globulars and nebulae,
and I
couldn't shake the feeling.

The first time was using a Televue unit, and I asked the owner about
it and
she said that's part of the deal. The second time it was a Zeiss, and I
didn't dare tell the owner what I thought because he was very proud of
his
very expensive piece of equipment. However, two other friends said they
thought the image in that Zeiss were less sharp than a single 16mm
Nagler-2,
also.

Did I just get unlucky twice? It's hard to believe, but let me know. A
friend in our club just got a Denk but I haven't tried it yet (it's well
below freezing up here).

-Astrosetz
www.astrosetz.com
www.ncsf.info



"Stephen Paul" wrote in message
...

Jon Isaacs wrote:

8. Seek counseling on s.a.a.



9. Realize that a binoviewer splits the light in half...


Unless you are one of those critical observer types who rejects the
Nagler eyepiece design for its impact on light transmission, this will
not matter at all. The views with a binoviewer are much more enjoyable
than the views in the same scope using one eye only, and they appear
equally (or at the very least similarly) bright in my experience with
the TeleVue BinoVue. (But, then, I'm not a "critical" observer. I just
like the view to "please" me. Aahhh, sweet.)

It's also my experience that objects appear larger with the use of two
eyes. Illusion or no, who cares?. It's a wonderful illusion.

"Bill Tschumy" wrote

I can't see how this experiment has much validity. When you observe
through
just one side of a binocular you are getting just 1/2 the light to your
eyes
compared to using both sides. Of course the view is going to look dimmer.

Putting a binoviewer on a scope is not going to suddenly boost the image
brightness just because you are using two eyes. If anything it will
decrease
it slightly. Of course, I don't deny the view might be more comfortable.

I should have been more specific. The view was not simply dimmer, it was as
though I was looking at a different--and much less interesting--piece of
sky. All rather subjective, but the wow factor and the linger value really
took a hit. It was as though I could much more effectively make sense of the
whole scene, sort of "see into it" and better perceive the structure etc.

You're right though, a more accurate comparison would be to use equal mag
and equal total light, e.g. 10x50s two-eyed vs. 10x70s one-eyed.

Mark