Methane chemistry at -200 Celsius

Liquid methane chemistry at -200 C.
-------------------------

Do we know anything about it?

What kind of compounds are formed at that temperature?

After a machine made a splash somewhere, this
looks like an interesting field of chemistry
isn't it?

Because couldn't a whole biochemistry be based
in compounds solved in methane at -200?

Since ambient energy is low, and solving solution
has less thermic movement, extremely low energy
gradients would become significant.

Complex structures can be built with less energy
and they are stable with less binding effort
since thermal energy is low.

Energy sources are present, since there were
strong winds. There are rivers that flow, rocks,
lakes. Everything an octave colder.

The sun ionizes the haze with UV,
making complex organic compounds
at the surface of the atmosphere.

This compounds rain down to cover
the whole planet. An orange haze.

Of food?

This looks like a biosphere, an octave
colder!

The reactions there are completely new to us.
Our knowledge of methane as solvent at that
temperature and the possible form of this
biochemistry can only be found with experiments
using the compounds of the blue haze around the
surface of Titan's atmosphere.

That is probably the base of the food chain,
that rains down into the whole planet.

This could be a huge biosphere, comparable
to ours, but an octave colder.

I am sure this possibility will occupy the mind
of humans as the next obvious step is prepared.

We have to come back.

To resume:

In Mars, something is breathing (methane found).
In Titan, something huge could have been found.

Mars is at the limit of water as universal solvent.
Titan shows us that methane based solvents are possible
at low temperatures.

Water using organisms are probably closer to us than
methane ones. And there could be other solvents
like sulfuric acid, using Phosphor-Sulfur biochemistry.

Biochemistry could be possible in non-water based
worlds.

Biochemistry is the active organization of atoms by software.

In our case, the software is encoded and stored in
specially built atom-chains: DNA.

Software could encode itself in strange compounds that
exist at temperatures and conditions we have no idea
about. Take a huge tank of sulfuric acid at 500 C.
Mix in Phosphorous, together with many other materials.

Energy can be extracted from the sun directly, and a lot
of energy is necessry at high temperatures, to maintain
the softare stable.

Beings using sulfuric acid as solvent would need a lot
of energy and their habitable zone is close to the star.

Beings using water as solvent, have an habitable zone
farther away from the star, but when the temperature
drops beyond the -100 or so, they can't exist.

The relay is taken by methane based beings. Ammoniac
could be a good universal solvent at low temperatures
too.

The habitable zone of those beings is farther away
from the star.

It extends as far as the solvent remains liquid. When
methane freezes they can't exist either.

Who takes the relay there?

Isolated planets in deep space would still be habitable
by beings that thrive in the interior of the planet.

The habitable zone of bacteria thriving from chemical
reactions in a planet's interior is the whole universe.

Including our own planet.

Thomas Gold proposed that, but nobody knows. It is very
difficult to go there. We know nothing of the biosphere
just 10 Km below our feets.

Yes, and the neurological response time of such organisms would be ...
welll.......... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...... on the order of one synaptic
response
per .................... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...................
welllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...
century? At that rate such creatures will write one sentence per
millenium!
Their first book published about 50 billion years from now.

abv



jacob navia wrote:

Liquid methane chemistry at -200 C.
-------------------------

Do we know anything about it?

What kind of compounds are formed at that temperature?

After a machine made a splash somewhere, this
looks like an interesting field of chemistry
isn't it?

Because couldn't a whole biochemistry be based
in compounds solved in methane at -200?

Since ambient energy is low, and solving solution
has less thermic movement, extremely low energy
gradients would become significant.

Complex structures can be built with less energy
and they are stable with less binding effort
since thermal energy is low.

Energy sources are present, since there were
strong winds. There are rivers that flow, rocks,
lakes. Everything an octave colder.

The sun ionizes the haze with UV,
making complex organic compounds
at the surface of the atmosphere.

This compounds rain down to cover
the whole planet. An orange haze.

Of food?

This looks like a biosphere, an octave
colder!

The reactions there are completely new to us.
Our knowledge of methane as solvent at that
temperature and the possible form of this
biochemistry can only be found with experiments
using the compounds of the blue haze around the
surface of Titan's atmosphere.

That is probably the base of the food chain,
that rains down into the whole planet.

This could be a huge biosphere, comparable
to ours, but an octave colder.

I am sure this possibility will occupy the mind
of humans as the next obvious step is prepared.

We have to come back.

To resume:

In Mars, something is breathing (methane found).
In Titan, something huge could have been found.

Mars is at the limit of water as universal solvent.
Titan shows us that methane based solvents are possible
at low temperatures.

Water using organisms are probably closer to us than
methane ones. And there could be other solvents
like sulfuric acid, using Phosphor-Sulfur biochemistry.

Biochemistry could be possible in non-water based
worlds.

Biochemistry is the active organization of atoms by software.

In our case, the software is encoded and stored in
specially built atom-chains: DNA.

Software could encode itself in strange compounds that
exist at temperatures and conditions we have no idea
about. Take a huge tank of sulfuric acid at 500 C.
Mix in Phosphorous, together with many other materials.

Energy can be extracted from the sun directly, and a lot
of energy is necessry at high temperatures, to maintain
the softare stable.

Beings using sulfuric acid as solvent would need a lot
of energy and their habitable zone is close to the star.

Beings using water as solvent, have an habitable zone
farther away from the star, but when the temperature
drops beyond the -100 or so, they can't exist.

The relay is taken by methane based beings. Ammoniac
could be a good universal solvent at low temperatures
too.

The habitable zone of those beings is farther away
from the star.

It extends as far as the solvent remains liquid. When
methane freezes they can't exist either.

Who takes the relay there?

Isolated planets in deep space would still be habitable
by beings that thrive in the interior of the planet.

The habitable zone of bacteria thriving from chemical
reactions in a planet's interior is the whole universe.

Including our own planet.

Thomas Gold proposed that, but nobody knows. It is very
difficult to go there. We know nothing of the biosphere
just 10 Km below our feets.

jacob navia wrote:

Liquid methane chemistry at -200 C.

I think that if there is rain on Titan, it means that there is
something hotter under surface to liquifie methane, like here the Sun
liquifies water.

Right?

Ernesto

In article ,
Elivs Stik wrote:
Yes, and the neurological response time of such organisms would be ...
welll.......... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...... on the order of one synaptic
response
per .................... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...................
welllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...
century? At that rate such creatures will write one sentence per
millenium!
Their first book published about 50 billion years from now.

You are assuming that the chemicals used for Titanian
neurosystems would have to behave at Titanian temperatures
like those for Terrestrial systems do. There is a problem
for organisms to have too high a neurological reaction
rate, and ours has adapted to our environment.

I doubt that Titanian organic chemistry would be that
similar to Terrestrial. It is possible that their
biological systems may be functionally similar, but
not use the same chemicals.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

In "relative" terms, theirs would be slower ... molasses is as molasses
does.


Herman Rubin wrote:

In article ,
Elivs Stik wrote:
Yes, and the neurological response time of such organisms would be ...
welll.......... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...... on the order of one synaptic
response
per .................... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...................
welllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...
century? At that rate such creatures will write one sentence per
millenium!
Their first book published about 50 billion years from now.

You are assuming that the chemicals used for Titanian
neurosystems would have to behave at Titanian temperatures
like those for Terrestrial systems do. There is a problem
for organisms to have too high a neurological reaction
rate, and ours has adapted to our environment.

I doubt that Titanian organic chemistry would be that
similar to Terrestrial. It is possible that their
biological systems may be functionally similar, but
not use the same chemicals.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:48:53 GMT
(rnesto) wrote:

I think that if there is rain on Titan, it means that there is
something hotter under surface to liquifie methane, like here the Sun
liquifies water.

Methane is always either a liquid or a gas on Titan. Energy to evaporate it would come from the sun, just like here on Earth.
--
Michael Smith
Network Applications
www.netapps.com.au | +61 (0) 416 062 898
Web Hosting | Internet Services

On 1 Feb 2005 10:12:41 -0500
(Herman Rubin) wrote:

I doubt that Titanian organic chemistry would be that
similar to Terrestrial. It is possible that their
biological systems may be functionally similar, but
not use the same chemicals.

The atmosphere of Titan seems to have the processes (wind, evaporation, precipitation) which we would expect on Earth. The temperature is lower, but energy differences still exist. Similar energy gaps could drive Titanian life.
--
Michael Smith
Network Applications
www.netapps.com.au | +61 (0) 416 062 898
Web Hosting | Internet Services