O'keefe says Zubrin's op-ed = 'wrong headed thinking...'

In article , TKalbfus wrote:

the female astronaut getting preggers and the
other astronauts actually being surprised by it *(and NASA having not
thought of this possibility beforehand),

They probably assumed that she wouldn't have sex for the duration of the
mission.

Oh, I'm sure there's a three-inch thick manual somewhere in JSC
detailing what to do if someone is about to give birth in micro-g. I
have no idea how they expect this situation to arise, but it wouldn't be
the NASA bureaucracy we know and love if someone hadn't planned for
implausibilities ;-)

the Mars lander screaming
horizontally through Valles Marinaris,

Its bound to make some sort of noise when passing through the atmosphere.

ICBW (I haven't read it, although I did acquire a cheap copy a while
ago), but I think one of Scott's objections may be the word
"horizontally"...

--
-Andrew Gray

Chris Vancil wrote in message


I think O'Keeke was actually talking about the idea of converting the
STS into a cargo carrying system (Shuttle-C) and not letting another
infrastructure fall waste. That would call for at least half as much
funding as the current STS, would still employ most of the same people
at KSC and would avoid the new lawn ornaments so needed at JSC and
KSC...

And worst of all would sort of require some function for the large
cargo launcher...like going back to the Moon or on to Mars or
both...this is surely wrong headed think!

BTW when mentioning anything here that has Zubrin's name involved,
expect Scott and crew to descend on you...


The US government organisation with the most useful hardware in orbit is
not NASA but DOD. Why not give the STS over to the US Airforce Space
Command? They can convert the shuttles into Heavy Lift Launch Vehicles
as Zubrin has suggested. Being able to launch 50-70 MT sats into orbit
would make their job a lot easier.

ta

Ralph

ICBW (I haven't read it, although I did acquire a cheap copy a while
ago), but I think one of Scott's objections may be the word
"horizontally"...

--
-Andrew Gray

Ok then, why can't a Mars lander move horizontally? Presumably it starts from
orbit and is moving horizontal with respect to the surface of Mars. You don't
expect the lander to arrest all of its horizontal movement before entering
Mars' atmosphere do you? Isn't that what Aerobraking is for? Would it be more
realistic if Zubrin described the spaceship as slowing down in space and coming
to a stop, then lowering itself down vertically through the atmosphere like a
1950s "Giant V2" Style rocket seen in those old science fiction movies. No
doubt Zubrin would use his trusty old atomic rockets to accomplish this feat.
The rocket would land on its tail, a hatch would open near the top and an iron
rung ladder would slowly unfold all the way to the planet's surface. Then a
bubble-headed spacesuited figure would emerge, slowly climbing down the long
rung ladder to the surface. This is the point at which strange 3-eyed Martian
monsters attack him and his party.

Tom

TKalbfus wrote:

I pointed out in the
script... the protestors *right* *outside* mission control,

In Houston? What's wrong with that?

Have you been to NASA-Johnson? Mission Control is somewhat within the
cionfines of this governemnt facility. Protestors directly outside MC
would imply that the security forces ahd completely broken down... a
highly unlikely and very silly situation. It'd be like having protestors
right outside the Oval Office.


the
psychologically unbalanced female astronaut who was actually allowed to
bring along a Bowie knife,

You sure it wasn't smuggled onboard?

Yup. In the version I read, she was quite open about brining it on board
and using it often (she was written as a fairly stereotypical hillbilly,
as memory serves).

the female astronaut getting preggers and the
other astronauts actually being surprised by it *(and NASA having not
thought of this possibility beforehand),

They probably assumed that she wouldn't have sex for the duration of the
mission.

Completely unrealistic and insultingly silly.


the Mars lander screaming
horizontally through Valles Marinaris,

Its bound to make some sort of noise when passing through the atmosphere.

Still shedding orbital energy after it has passed below Martian "sea
level" is unrealistic and silly.


the ERV plopping down in New York
Harbor

You are saying this is not possible.

I'm saying it's unrealistic. The Shuttle could probably land at Chicago
O'Hare, and "with GPS systems, this is quite possible." Yet they keep
landing the Shuttle *away* form large collections of humans beings and
their taller structures...

And besides: as memory serves, the ERV landed in NY harbor just by
random chance. Thuis "dramatic," yet in the end it came off as
ridiculous.

As I said, this was a draft of a script, not the novel. I can only hope
these (and other sillinesses, such as a raving televangelist named
something like "Billy Joe Bobolink," or some such) were changed.

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer

"Any statement by Edward Wright that starts with 'You seem to think
that...' is wrong. Always. It's a law of Usenet, like Godwin's."
- Jorge R. Frank, 11 Nov 2002

Andrew Gray wrote:

In article , TKalbfus wrote:

the female astronaut getting preggers and the
other astronauts actually being surprised by it *(and NASA having not
thought of this possibility beforehand),

They probably assumed that she wouldn't have sex for the duration of the
mission.

Oh, I'm sure there's a three-inch thick manual somewhere in JSC
detailing what to do if someone is about to give birth in micro-g. I
have no idea how they expect this situation to arise,

....especially since, prior to a multi-year mission to Mars, the crew
would have their tonsils and appendices removed... and their tubes tied.
Foreseeable medical issues that can be reasonably prevented WILL BE
prevented.


--
Scott Lowther, Engineer

"Any statement by Edward Wright that starts with 'You seem to think
that...' is wrong. Always. It's a law of Usenet, like Godwin's."
- Jorge R. Frank, 11 Nov 2002

Crikey,

Gentlemen. I owned a science fiction and fantasy bookshop for over three
years and was happy to sell Zubrin's novel. "First Landing" is a science
fiction novel. A work of fiction. Its not supposed to be a factual telling
of
a Mars mission. Its supposed to be a story about human courage and
the Martian frontier.

The story is dramatic and amusing. Unbelivable perhaps, ( the New York
Harbour landing is silly but had be laughing) but an enjoyable read.
Clearly it was a movie script idea and frankly would have made a
much better movie the "Red Planet" or Mission to Mars"

ta

Ralph


The value of a novel is not
Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
TKalbfus wrote:

The only other thing that might make it plausible
is if Mission Control was moved from where it is now to a place where
protestors could be right outside. Were talking ten years in the future
so who
knows what the layout of the place would look like.

Even if it moves, iot's not going to be moved to right next to a public
space.



Completely unrealistic and insultingly silly.


It was clearly her responsibility not to get pregnant, I don't think it
should
be necessary to have each female astronaut's tubes tied and to give each
male
astronaut a vasectomy before each mission.

Sure it should. I note you snipped the tonsil/appendix issue: it is jsut
basic common sense to take prevantative emasures to preclude easily
precludable medical emergencies.

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer

"Any statement by Edward Wright that starts with 'You seem to think
that...' is wrong. Always. It's a law of Usenet, like Godwin's."
- Jorge R. Frank, 11 Nov 2002

In article ,
Scott Lowther wrote:
James Nicoll wrote:

If 3, then he should read "First Landing", which is I think is the
best stuff Zubrin has written.

Is that the novel?

There's some evidence to my eyes that it was actually written
by Kevin J. Anderson, in as much it sucks thoat ********...


Well... I read an earlier draft of it (IIRC, it was called "Martians"),
when it was being pitched as a movie script. It was clearly written by
Zubrin, not a ghost writer. I have not read the novel. I can only hope
that he fixed some of the massive, screaming flaws I pointed out in the
script...

Huh. Well then perhaps I am wrong.

I notice goggling we discussed this before but you didn't
mention reading the MS, which I can only assume was because of trauma
induced amnesia. I can only hope I will be so lucky.

--
It's amazing how the waterdrops form: a ball of water with an air bubble
inside it and inside of that one more bubble of water. It looks so beautiful
[...]. I realized something: the world is interesting for the man who can
be surprised. -Valentin Lebedev-

(Tom Merkle) wrote in message . com...
I grabbed this off the Mars Society Web Sight today. What got my
attention is that Sean O'Keefe said that it represented "wrong headed
thinking." Anybody know what he was referring to, the reuse of shuttle
or the idea of a 'simpler' capsule OSP?

Either way it seems to indicate that O'keefe is already discounting
the idea of a simpler OSP.

If anybody has the details of his conversation with Congress, please
post them.



I think O'Keeke was actually talking about the idea of converting the
STS into a cargo carrying system (Shuttle-C) and not letting another
infrastructure fall waste. That would call for at least half as much
funding as the current STS, would still employ most of the same people
at KSC and would avoid the new lawn ornaments so needed at JSC and
KSC...

And worst of all would sort of require some function for the large
cargo launcher...like going back to the Moon or on to Mars or
both...this is surely wrong headed think!

BTW when mentioning anything here that has Zubrin's name involved,
expect Scott and crew to descend on you...

Just as if you mention something like... "a radical new system for
tansporting people into space is needed to make space tourism viable."
will get the Rand bees on your butt...lot of turf here and lots of
dogs to defend it!

--Chris Vancil

Gemini XI

Will McLean


It wasn't deliberate and a result of malfunctioning thrusters. Besides, the
spin radius was too small.

Tom

Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
Derek Lyons wrote:

(TKalbfus) wrote:

Zoom! And it goes right over TKalbfus' head...

So your saying there's personal animosity between O'Keefe and Zubrin?

No, he's saying Zubrin's reputation and influence in many circles far
outstrips his actual capabilities.

Exactamundo, with this addition: personality. I have no idea if O'Keefe
has met Zubrin. But if he has, you can be that O'Keefe probably cringes
whenever the name pops up. This is a Very Common Reaction. Ask around.

agreed. The Case for Mars is what originally reinterested me in space.
But after a few months of looking into it I couldn't figure out how he
convinced himself that this was a"realistic" estimation of cost or
success for probability....

NEVERTHELESS, my big interest is in trying to figure out whether or
not the capsule OSP has already been secretly counted out...

-Tom Merkle