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We, first loosers for 100 years.



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 30th 04, 09:19 PM
Vello
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Default We, first loosers for 100 years.

Just one strange idea: mankind don't have now space capabilities comparable
what we had 30 years ago. It seems it is first time mankind is "dropping
back" in technology - or is there some other examples in history (well there
was a time after collapse of Roman Empire when a lot of technologies were
lost, but my post is about last 200-400 years)

Best,
Vello

  #2  
Old August 31st 04, 09:29 PM
Derek Lyons
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"Vello" wrote:
Just one strange idea: mankind don't have now space capabilities comparable
what we had 30 years ago. It seems it is first time mankind is "dropping
back" in technology - or is there some other examples in history (well there
was a time after collapse of Roman Empire when a lot of technologies were
lost, but my post is about last 200-400 years)


Nice thesis, but it founders on the rocks of reality. There isn't a
capability that we had thirty years ago that we know don't have.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

  #3  
Old September 2nd 04, 09:54 AM
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Derek Lyons wrote:
"Vello" wrote:
Just one strange idea: mankind don't have now space capabilities comparable
what we had 30 years ago. It seems it is first time mankind is "dropping
back" in technology - or is there some other examples in history (well there
was a time after collapse of Roman Empire when a lot of technologies were
lost, but my post is about last 200-400 years)


Nice thesis, but it founders on the rocks of reality. There isn't a
capability that we had thirty years ago that we know don't have.



Based on a loose definition of 30 years, the ability to launch a mission
to the moon on a few months leadtime.

  #4  
Old September 2nd 04, 09:54 AM
Vello
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"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Vello" wrote:
Just one strange idea: mankind don't have now space capabilities

comparable
what we had 30 years ago. It seems it is first time mankind is "dropping
back" in technology - or is there some other examples in history (well

there
was a time after collapse of Roman Empire when a lot of technologies were
lost, but my post is about last 200-400 years)


Nice thesis, but it founders on the rocks of reality. There isn't a
capability that we had thirty years ago that we know don't have.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.


Well, but we are in progress. Knowledge how to make concrete instead of
bricks-stones was lost surely some period later then last Roman concrete
building was erected:-) Today we have yet capabilities, but we lack will.
Situation well comparable with last centuries of Pax Romana when people turn
more on "dolce vita". And just by facts - at least for last centuries any
generation had have in use technologies superior to what last generation
had. Today we can't travel faster then 40 years ago, we can't go to Moon or
in the deepest point of sea. Well, we think we could do all that if we will.
But, probably, there is something wrong just with our "will". We don't will
to go further any more?


  #5  
Old September 2nd 04, 08:48 PM
Derek Lyons
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wrote:

Derek Lyons wrote:

Nice thesis, but it founders on the rocks of reality. There isn't a
capability that we had thirty years ago that we know don't have.


Based on a loose definition of 30 years, the ability to launch a mission
to the moon on a few months leadtime.


Based on a loose definition of reality too... as we never had that
ability. Each landing was the culmination of months and years of
planning and training.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

  #6  
Old September 2nd 04, 08:54 PM
Derek Lyons
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"Vello" wrote:
And just by facts - at least for last centuries any generation had have in use
technologies superior to what last generation had. Today we can't travel
faster then 40 years ago,


And somebody in 1770 couldn't ride a horse any faster than the Greeks
20 centuries before. in 1870 we couldn't sail any faster than the
Armada 400 years before...

we can't go to Moon or in the deepest point of sea.


Because we cannot do so on a moments notice does not mean that we
cannot go if the desire and requirement exists.

Well, we think we could do all that if we will. But, probably, there is something
wrong just with our "will". We don't will to go further any more?


No. There's simply no need to do so.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

  #7  
Old September 3rd 04, 07:24 PM
Ian Stirling
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Derek Lyons wrote:
wrote:

Derek Lyons wrote:

Nice thesis, but it founders on the rocks of reality. There isn't a
capability that we had thirty years ago that we know don't have.


Based on a loose definition of 30 years, the ability to launch a mission
to the moon on a few months leadtime.


Based on a loose definition of reality too... as we never had that
ability. Each landing was the culmination of months and years of
planning and training.


True.
But any given mission could have been repurposed at a fairly short
leadtime, if a big glowing "land here for membership of the
Galctic Bowling League" sign appeared on the moon.

  #8  
Old September 7th 04, 03:20 AM
Derek Lyons
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"Christopher M. Jones" wrote:

Derek Lyons wrote:
"Vello" wrote:

And just by facts - at least for last centuries any generation had have in use
technologies superior to what last generation had. Today we can't travel
faster then 40 years ago,


And somebody in 1770 couldn't ride a horse any faster than the Greeks
20 centuries before. in 1870 we couldn't sail any faster than the
Armada 400 years before...


Strange as it may sound, both of those assertions are
incorrect. Not all horses, nor all sailing vessels,
are the same. Compare, for example, the speed of a
Spanish Galleon (~8 kts) vs. the speed of a Yankee
Clipper built centuries later (~18 kts).


Strange as it may sound.. When you exclude edge cases and highly
specialized craft... (I.E. the Clippers) you find my assertion
correct.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

  #9  
Old September 8th 04, 07:34 PM
Christian Ramos
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(Derek Lyons) wrote in message ...
"Vello" wrote:
Just one strange idea: mankind don't have now space capabilities comparable
what we had 30 years ago. It seems it is first time mankind is "dropping
back" in technology - or is there some other examples in history (well there
was a time after collapse of Roman Empire when a lot of technologies were
lost, but my post is about last 200-400 years)


Nice thesis, but it founders on the rocks of reality. There isn't a
capability that we had thirty years ago that we know don't have.

D.



Ahem..Your statement appears to violate the understanding of most of
the aerospace people I've had contact with . You could argue it for
russian technology (debateable) but for american, well, my
understanding is that for the USA to undertake a lunar landing now
would require development from scratch of many technologies. I've also
know from past discussions, that some of the technologies that the US
uses currently will not even function in outer space due to the
different environments and the US focus on LEO rather than outer space
environments.

Let's take a basic requirement. In the 60's the US had a spacesuit
capable of allowing astronauts to function on the moons surface for
brief periods, they werent very good suits but they worked for the
hours required and did the job. Currently, the US utilises the EMU, a
zero-g environment suit not suitable for the lunar surface operations.

Is it your contention, that the apollo spacesuit could still be
produced in the US without having to redevelop it from scratch?

From what I was reading recently, the US seems to have forgotten some

aspects of the technology they even use today. I recently read that
people at one point were not even aware that you could use a harness
in the current emu spacesuit. Note: I may be oversimplifying with the
word harness, but it was a contraption for holding the astronaut in
position within the suit and noone was aware the capability even
existed or how to go about fitting it to a astronaut and this is a
cuurrent configuration item on an existing and supported piece of
technology.

You could argue this is just a sympton of the ongoing decline in the
USA's scientific and technology, but it's more likely driven by the
hectic pace at the time of apollo launches and the termination of the
program.

 




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