Germany in space

Hi,
Today I saw in Pima Air & Space Museum two names, new to me. In the
Space Exploratorium there is small booth Germany(means nazi Germany)
in Space, with models of America Bomber of Eugene Sander and manned
rocket of Erich Bachen. Anyone knows something specific about these 2
greatest engineers? Will appreciate any links and sources.
Regards,
Alex

Alex wrote:
Hi,
Today I saw in Pima Air & Space Museum two names, new to me. In the
Space Exploratorium there is small booth Germany(means nazi Germany)
in Space, with models of America Bomber of Eugene Sander and manned
rocket of Erich Bachen. Anyone knows something specific about these 2
greatest engineers? Will appreciate any links and sources.
Regards,

Antipodal Bomber:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbervogel
http://www.luft46.com/misc/sanger.html
Here's his report on the antipodal bomber in pdf format:
http://www.astronautix.com/data/saenger.pdf

Bachem Ba-349 "Natter":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachem_Ba_349
http://www.fantasyofflight.com/aircraftpages/natter.htm
(I'm pretty sure that instrument in the center of the control panel is
part of the automated guidance system for ascent. I assume you are
supposed to keep a marker centered inside the cross hairs as the ground
radar controllers direct you toward the target bombers.)
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero...t/bachemba.htm
The fun thing about the Natter is how the pilot gets out of it and the
end of his flight.
He pulls a lever and everything in front of his seat falls away; then he
unbuckles his seatbelt, reaches down and pulls the control stick out of
its mounting and throws that away, then pulls another lever that deploys
a parachute at the back of the plane...causing him to be hurled free as
it slows down. Finally he opens his own parachute and descends
separately from the rest of the aircraft. :-)


Pat

On Jan 28, 2:43 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Alex wrote:
Hi,
Today I saw in Pima Air & Space Museum two names, new to me. In the
Space Exploratorium there is small booth Germany(means nazi Germany)
in Space, with models of America Bomber of Eugene Sander and manned
rocket of Erich Bachen. Anyone knows something specific about these 2
greatest engineers? Will appreciate any links and sources.
Regards,Antipodal Bomber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silberv...sc/sanger.html
Here's his report on the antipodal bomber in pdf format:http://www.astronautix.com/data/saenger.pdf

Bachem Ba-349 "Natter":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachem_...ges/natter.htm
(I'm pretty sure that instrument in the center of the control panel is
part of the automated guidance system for ascent. I assume you are
supposed to keep a marker centered inside the cross hairs as the ground
radar controllers direct you toward the target bombers.)http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero...t/bachemba.htm
The fun thing about the Natter is how the pilot gets out of it and the
end of his flight.
He pulls a lever and everything in front of his seat falls away; then he
unbuckles his seatbelt, reaches down and pulls the control stick out of
its mounting and throws that away, then pulls another lever that deploys
a parachute at the back of the plane...causing him to be hurled free as
it slows down. Finally he opens his own parachute and descends
separately from the rest of the aircraft. :-)

Pat
Pat,
Thanks for the story and links. Simple misspelling stopped my search.
Do you know anything about other von Braun team members? Museum
mentions 'few dozens', but no names and why von Braun selected them to
join him in Germany and in El Paso?
Thanks,
Alex

Alex wrote:
Pat,
Thanks for the story and links. Simple misspelling stopped my search.

Neither Sanger or Bachem worked for the Peenemunde von Braun team; in
fact, Sanger was in direct competition with von Braun's crew for funding
and resource allocation.

Do you know anything about other von Braun team members? Museum
mentions 'few dozens', but no names and why von Braun selected them to
join him in Germany and in El Paso?


We got our hands on a whole slew of German scientists at the end of WW
II and moved them to the U.S. under Operation Paperclip. They had a
major influence on lots of our military programs, particularly in the
fields of aeronautics and rocketry.
Including von Braun, there were 118 former German scientists working at
Fort Bliss alone.
Actually it was the Pentagon and American intelligence services, along
with some help from the FBI, who pretty well decided who was going
where, and if they were coming to the U.S. at all.
It was a case of perceived value of an individual against what their
political and military history had been during the war; they could pull
quite a few strings in this regard if the individual was thought very
important, but there was an upper limit to what was politically possible.
A lot of the von Braun team and their friends went on to popularize
space exploration to the American public in the 1950s.
Notable examples were Willy Ley, Fredrick Ordway, Krafft Ehricke, and
Ernst Stuhlinger; who did this both in their writings and as employees
of major American aerospace firms after becoming citizens.
Von Braun and his team's Collier's Magazine articles and their work with
Disney on the "Man In Space" series of shows were particularly important
in this regard.

Pat

On Jan 28, 1:24 pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
Alex wrote:
Pat,
Thanks for the story and links. Simple misspelling stopped my search.Neither Sanger or Bachem worked for the Peenemunde von Braun team; in
fact, Sanger was in direct competition with von Braun's crew for funding
and resource allocation.

Do you know anything about other von Braun team members? Museum
mentions 'few dozens', but no names and why von Braun selected them to
join him in Germany and in El Paso?We got our hands on a whole slew of German scientists at the end of WW
II and moved them to the U.S. under Operation Paperclip. They had a
major influence on lots of our military programs, particularly in the
fields of aeronautics and rocketry.
Including von Braun, there were 118 former German scientists working at
Fort Bliss alone.
Actually it was the Pentagon and American intelligence services, along
with some help from the FBI, who pretty well decided who was going
where, and if they were coming to the U.S. at all.
It was a case of perceived value of an individual against what their
political and military history had been during the war; they could pull
quite a few strings in this regard if the individual was thought very
important, but there was an upper limit to what was politically possible.
A lot of the von Braun team and their friends went on to popularize
space exploration to the American public in the 1950s.
Notable examples were Willy Ley, Fredrick Ordway, Krafft Ehricke, and
Ernst Stuhlinger; who did this both in their writings and as employees
of major American aerospace firms after becoming citizens.
Von Braun and his team's Collier's Magazine articles and their work with
Disney on the "Man In Space" series of shows were particularly important
in this regard.

Pat
Pat,
You intrigued me. I didn't expect the FBI involvements, but I did
expect intelligence, like the CIA or how that called that time, did
some selection. I guessed von Braun role was a project manager and the
system designer, but some other his teammates did care about
propellant research, navigation and control (real time control and
remote one), material science, etc. Von Braun became the most
recognizable person from the greatest team of rocket researchers and
engineers, I want to know about other brilliant people and about their
genius minds to select/invent/implement such technical things like
rocket control at lift off time and on its way into space. I don't
believe into von Braun genius to design everything by him, but I
believe into brilliant minds of dozens of his teammates and I have a
great interest to know who was responsible for what in his team and
what product actually was delivered by that engineer. I even don't
know what kind of major took von Braun and his teammates in
Universities. I guess majority of his guys were the DSP engineers, not
physicists. Am I wrong? It is interesting, how people jumped into the
area where they didn't have a formal training and they delivered the
solutions what became an engineering classic. Unfortunately, many of
these brilliant minds are forgotten now in favor of their great boss,
Dr von Braun. I expect, all space research work in 1940x-1960x is not
a secret anymore and, I guess, someone spent some great and fun time
to describe a real history, based on documents, how a Human bean
attacked the space travel task and who specifically delivered
components needed to the trip.
Thanks,
Alex

Alex wrote:
Von Braun became the most
recognizable person from the greatest team of rocket researchers and
engineers, I want to know about other brilliant people and about their
genius minds to select/invent/implement such technical things like
rocket control at lift off time and on its way into space. I don't
believe into von Braun genius to design everything by him, but I
believe into brilliant minds of dozens of his teammates and I have a
great interest to know who was responsible for what in his team and
what product actually was delivered by that engineer.

Okay everybody, if this was about just Peenemunde or the Soviet effort,
I might be able to take a crack at it, but my major interest has always
been the machines, not the personalities behind them. So anybody out
there who knows who exactly did what in regards to the German scientists
at Peenemunde and in our postwar rocket program?
Von Braun's real gift was that he was a very good rocket engineer who
had enough knowledge in all the various aspects of rocket design that
he could understand what specialists in each specific aspect were
talking about, and form a group of individual specialists into a
cohesive whole that heading in the desired direction with all the pieces
linking up correctly, rather than everything falling apart into
disorganized chaos.
People who knew him said he was a pretty good scientist, but one of the
most superb managers you have ever met.
In that respect he reminded a lot of people of the head of the U.S.
Atomic Bomb effort, J. Robert Oppenheimer.
He was also an excellent public speaker, (and maybe just a little bit of
a con-man) and that didn't hurt when he was arguing for funds for his
projects. :-)

Pat

On Jan 28, 6:32 pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
Alex wrote:
Von Braun became the most
recognizable person from the greatest team of rocket researchers and
engineers, I want to know about other brilliant people and about their
genius minds to select/invent/implement such technical things like
rocket control at lift off time and on its way into space. I don't
believe into von Braun genius to design everything by him, but I
believe into brilliant minds of dozens of his teammates and I have a
great interest to know who was responsible for what in his team and
what product actually was delivered by that engineer.Okay everybody, if this was about just Peenemunde or the Soviet effort,
I might be able to take a crack at it, but my major interest has always
been the machines, not the personalities behind them. So anybody out
there who knows who exactly did what in regards to the German scientists
at Peenemunde and in our postwar rocket program?
Von Braun's real gift was that he was a very good rocket engineer who
had enough knowledge in all the various aspects of rocket design that
he could understand what specialists in each specific aspect were
talking about, and form a group of individual specialists into a
cohesive whole that heading in the desired direction with all the pieces
linking up correctly, rather than everything falling apart into
disorganized chaos.
People who knew him said he was a pretty good scientist, but one of the
most superb managers you have ever met.
In that respect he reminded a lot of people of the head of the U.S.
Atomic Bomb effort, J. Robert Oppenheimer.
He was also an excellent public speaker, (and maybe just a little bit of
a con-man) and that didn't hurt when he was arguing for funds for his
projects. :-)

Pat
Pat,
You get my question. I think, it is interesting for everyone to know
who did what in Germany-America space launch. Now I know, German
engineers were selected from 2 different and competing design shops.
For some reason, favor was given for Dr. von Braun, probebly because
he proved his rocket design managment skill and 'an excellent public
speaker' skill for Hitler.How other engineers were selected to
continue their work in the US? Do they really 'the cream' of these 2
competing space design shops or some human sympathy or political
considerations plyed some role? If so, what happened with talants
outside of work circle and with not talanted guys taken for the job?
Who specificly designed components for the A-4 and the US space
vehicle? How they did that?
Awhile ago I surprised myself to recognize that all Russian rocket
designers get University training in aerodynamics and aviation, they
should be very familiar with problems in physics and chemistry. The
focus of German engineering at that time was not in physics but in
control theory and control applications, as one of my source said. Is
it true? I have no idea what was the main research focus of American
rocketers in 1940x. Any one knows?
Regards,
Alex

On 28 Jan 2007 20:54:34 -0800, "Alex"
wrote:

I have no idea what was the main research focus of American
rocketers in 1940x. Any one knows?

....Focusing past ridicule while trying to acquire funds, natch.

OM
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] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

Alex wrote:
Pat,
You get my question. I think, it is interesting for everyone to know
who did what in Germany-America space launch. Now I know, German
engineers were selected from 2 different and competing design shops.
That's way too simple for anything involving Nazi Germany.
There were a whole bunch of competing firms working on things at the
same time, generally in competition with each other, and most of the
time with very little idea what the other groups were up to.
They had at least four groups working on atomic power and bombs,
including one atomic bomb project being run by the German Post Office.
The Rheinbote solid-fueled long range missile was being developed as a
competitor to the V-2 by Rheinmetall-Borsig, and not only did the
Peenemunde team have little knowledge of it, but the German government
didn't know of it at the beginning.
Sanger had gotten his hands on the largest liquid oxygen tank in the
Reich, and was working on his rocket ideas in direct competition with
Peenemunde, but with a far smaller team.
Dr. Zippermeyer was working on a vortex cannon to shoot airplanes out of
the sky with slugs of compressed air.
Messerschmidt was developing the Enzian SAM, Henschel was developing the
Schmetterling SAM, Rheinmetall-Borsig was developing the Rheinbote SAM,
and Peenemunde was developing the Wasserfall SAM.... all with very
little input from the other design teams.

For some reason, favor was given for Dr. von Braun, probebly because
he proved his rocket design managment skill and 'an excellent public
speaker' skill for Hitler.How other engineers were selected to
continue their work in the US? Do they really 'the cream' of these 2
competing space design shops or some human sympathy or political
considerations plyed some role?

In a nutshell, The U.S. got the design brains of the Peenemunde team,
and the Soviets got the production related scientists.
Sanger headed for France, where the Soviets tried to locate him to
convince him to come to work for them (by force if necessary) but
couldn't locate him, even though he was in the phone book under his real
name..because their agents took a real fondness to the Paris nightclub
scene, and decided that watching the can-can dancers at the Moulin Rouge
was far more fun than looking for a German rocket scientist.

If so, what happened with talants
outside of work circle and with not talanted guys taken for the job?

Well, here's what happened...Peenemunde was in the agreed-upon Soviet
zone of occupation, so before they got there, the U.S. had its troops
sneak in under "Special Mission V-2" and grab everything and everyone
who wasn't bolted down, and drag them into our zone of occupation,
including von Braun and his team, and a whole pile of V-2s...as well as
all the secret design and experimental projects paperwork on all of
Peenemunde's projects.
The scientists were then brought to the U.S. under "Operation Overcast"
which later became "Operation Paperclip":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
What was left over was grabbed by the Soviets, who set up a design
bureau in East Germany where the scientists the U.S. didn't get got to
continue their work under Helmut Gottrup, who had turned down our offer
to come to Fort Bliss... until one night when the Soviets held a big
party for them (Bolsheviks are all about big parties), got them drunk,
and then kidnapped them and their families and dragged them off to
Russia and the island of Gorodomliya, northwest of Moscow. There they
picked them clean of all the data they had in their heads at a new
design bureau set up specificly for them, then let them return to East
Germany in the late 40's and early 50's once the Soviet rocket and
missile programs were up to speed.

Pat

On Jan 29, 7:57 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Alex wrote:
Pat,
You get my question. I think, it is interesting for everyone to know
who did what in Germany-America space launch. Now I know, German
engineers were selected from 2 different and competing design shops.That's way too simple for anything involving Nazi Germany.
There were a whole bunch of competing firms working on things at the
same time, generally in competition with each other, and most of the
time with very little idea what the other groups were up to.
They had at least four groups working on atomic power and bombs,
including one atomic bomb project being run by the German Post Office.
The Rheinbote solid-fueled long range missile was being developed as a
competitor to the V-2 by Rheinmetall-Borsig, and not only did the
Peenemunde team have little knowledge of it, but the German government
didn't know of it at the beginning.
Sanger had gotten his hands on the largest liquid oxygen tank in the
Reich, and was working on his rocket ideas in direct competition with
Peenemunde, but with a far smaller team.
Dr. Zippermeyer was working on a vortex cannon to shoot airplanes out of
the sky with slugs of compressed air.
Messerschmidt was developing the Enzian SAM, Henschel was developing the
Schmetterling SAM, Rheinmetall-Borsig was developing the Rheinbote SAM,
and Peenemunde was developing the Wasserfall SAM.... all with very
little input from the other design teams.



For some reason, favor was given for Dr. von Braun, probebly because
he proved his rocket design managment skill and 'an excellent public
speaker' skill for Hitler.How other engineers were selected to
continue their work in the US? Do they really 'the cream' of these 2
competing space design shops or some human sympathy or political
considerations plyed some role?In a nutshell, The U.S. got the design brains of the Peenemunde team,
and the Soviets got the production related scientists.
Sanger headed for France, where the Soviets tried to locate him to
convince him to come to work for them (by force if necessary) but
couldn't locate him, even though he was in the phone book under his real
name..because their agents took a real fondness to the Paris nightclub
scene, and decided that watching the can-can dancers at the Moulin Rouge
was far more fun than looking for a German rocket scientist.

If so, what happened with talants
outside of work circle and with not talanted guys taken for the job?Well, here's what happened...Peenemunde was in the agreed-upon Soviet
zone of occupation, so before they got there, the U.S. had its troops
sneak in under "Special Mission V-2" and grab everything and everyone
who wasn't bolted down, and drag them into our zone of occupation,
including von Braun and his team, and a whole pile of V-2s...as well as
all the secret design and experimental projects paperwork on all of
Peenemunde's projects.
The scientists were then brought to the U.S. under "Operation Overcast"
which later became "Operation Paperclip":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
What was left over was grabbed by the Soviets, who set up a design
bureau in East Germany where the scientists the U.S. didn't get got to
continue their work under Helmut Gottrup, who had turned down our offer
to come to Fort Bliss... until one night when the Soviets held a big
party for them (Bolsheviks are all about big parties), got them drunk,
and then kidnapped them and their families and dragged them off to
Russia and the island of Gorodomliya, northwest of Moscow. There they
picked them clean of all the data they had in their heads at a new
design bureau set up specificly for them, then let them return to East
Germany in the late 40's and early 50's once the Soviet rocket and
missile programs were up to speed.

Pat
Pat,
A lot of new names! Thanks for the big picture about space research in
Germany. Looks like if Nazi could be more organized and more
disciplined then they were in WW II they could change the war path. I
mean, if they could follow by the US example, when all greatest
nuclear minds worked for one project only, the Manhattan project, who
knows how history could be alternated. Interesting to find more
details about those tens (hundreds?) German companies involved in the
space run, about people who runs so advanced projects, about their
greatest achievements that time and what was an obstacle, they were
not able to overrun quickly before the end of the War. I'm going to
look for names Pat mentioned, I want to know more details about each
company specific contribution into space run. So far, my 1st discovery
is about Helmut Gottrup. Accordingly http://www.spaceline.org/history/
6.html and http://www.beaconschool.org/departments/history/docs/
11historypaper2.pdf, Helmut Gottrup and his team involvements into
Russian space run had been very limited - they helped Russian to re-
build the V-2 rocket for their own research and prototyping. No
sources I found to prove Dr. Helmut Gottrup involvements into other
aspects of Soviet space exploration. I see in this small example how
different was the US approach to the space run from the USSR
technology. The US entirely relied on imported German genius and
Russian used Germans very limited to relay on its own talents. Will
look for other names and details.
Alex