It's become clear to me that "space colony" dreamers don't want to face the hard problems Earth-side

Mike Combs wrote:
"Einar" wrote in message
ups.com...

I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth.

And it's always occurred to me that if you don't want somebody to do
something, establishing an impossible precondition would be one way.

One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

And the reality is that the universe is (so far as we can tell) an utterly
empty place. I've always said that if humans are arguably 51% good, then
humanity spreading out into the universe would be an improvement of it.

--


Regards,
Mike Combs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth
I bid you stand, Men of the West!
Aragorn

And, it also often neglect that fixing things over here may require
resources that are beyond Earth´s own supply capabilities.

Cheers, Einar

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:13:15 -0700, GatherNoMoss
wrote, in part:

The hard issues like population control, political systems,
environment and the uses of resources, conflict resolution and the
effective discipline of aggression/ambition (for a truly advanced
people this will be done on a personal basis.....as compared to
totalitarian government), etc.

Do you know *why* those are hard issues?

They're hard issues because Earth is filled with *other people*.

Other people who might decide not to control _their_ populations, even
if you control yours.

Other people who might decide to pollute the environment, even if you
are responsible.

Lots of people plus lots of heavy industry equals more ability to make
war.

So maybe the only *real* solution to the hard problems is for the
sensible people who want to play nice to get so far away from the others
who want to prepare for world conquest, never mind the cost to the
environment and so on, that they can safely manage their own community
in the way that makes sense.

And, these days, far enough for that isn't anywhere on Earth.

John Savard
http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html

On 26 Jul, 01:31, Einar wrote:
Aragorn

And, it also often neglect that fixing things over here may require
resources that are beyond Earth´s own supply capabilities.

I think that is absolutely right. Control of global warming will
ultimately require the control of sunlight from space. Suppose we
found that we could perform thermonuclear fusion, but that neutrons
were a bad idea and we needed lots of He3.

Would you need a manned lunar colony? Not necessarily. We would have
to send self repairing swarms to mine the Moon.

BTW - Earth is NOT suffering from overpopulation. Demographers say the
population will peak at just over 9 billion by 2050. In fact in the
West we are facing an ageing population.


- Ian Parker

Ian Parker wrote:
On 26 Jul, 01:31, Einar wrote:
Aragorn

And, it also often neglect that fixing things over here may require
resources that are beyond Earth´s own supply capabilities.

I think that is absolutely right. Control of global warming will
ultimately require the control of sunlight from space. Suppose we
found that we could perform thermonuclear fusion, but that neutrons
were a bad idea and we needed lots of He3.

Would you need a manned lunar colony? Not necessarily. We would have
to send self repairing swarms to mine the Moon.

BTW - Earth is NOT suffering from overpopulation. Demographers say the
population will peak at just over 9 billion by 2050. In fact in the
West we are facing an ageing population.


- Ian Parker

Indeed, out population appears to be peaking this century.

I´ve also heard it mentioned that our planet could be shielded. Either
of the two, make enough numbers of spacemirrors or enough numbers of
solar sails, plase them in an orbit where they reflect a sufficient
percentage of Sunlight away from the Earth. It´s an engineering
solution, perfectly dooable I have heard.

Cheers, Einar

Ian Parker wrote:

:On 26 Jul, 01:31, Einar wrote:
:
: And, it also often neglect that fixing things over here may require
: resources that are beyond Earth´s own supply capabilities.
:
:
:I think that is absolutely right. Control of global warming will
:ultimately require the control of sunlight from space.
:

This is not the same thing as Einar said. We can do that with purely
Earth-fabricated and Earth-launched material.

:
:Suppose we
:found that we could perform thermonuclear fusion, but that neutrons
:were a bad idea and we needed lots of He3.
:

Why, we would go get some, of course.

:
:Would you need a manned lunar colony? Not necessarily. We would have
:to send self repairing swarms to mine the Moon.
:

We already have such "self repairing swarms". They're called mining
crews.

:
:BTW - Earth is NOT suffering from overpopulation. Demographers say the
opulation will peak at just over 9 billion by 2050. In fact in the
:West we are facing an ageing population.
:

Demographics in the West have nothing to do with whether or not there
is overpopulation.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Einar wrote:

:
:Ian Parker wrote:
: On 26 Jul, 01:31, Einar wrote:
: Aragorn
:
: And, it also often neglect that fixing things over here may require
: resources that are beyond Earth´s own supply capabilities.
:
: I think that is absolutely right. Control of global warming will
: ultimately require the control of sunlight from space. Suppose we
: found that we could perform thermonuclear fusion, but that neutrons
: were a bad idea and we needed lots of He3.
:
: Would you need a manned lunar colony? Not necessarily. We would have
: to send self repairing swarms to mine the Moon.
:
: BTW - Earth is NOT suffering from overpopulation. Demographers say the
: population will peak at just over 9 billion by 2050. In fact in the
: West we are facing an ageing population.
:
:
:I´ve also heard it mentioned that our planet could be shielded. Either
f the two, make enough numbers of spacemirrors or enough numbers of
:solar sails, plase them in an orbit where they reflect a sufficient
ercentage of Sunlight away from the Earth. It´s an engineering
:solution, perfectly dooable I have heard.
:

You're thinking far too large. See Teller, Wood, and Hyde.


--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer

On Jul 24, 7:57 pm, Hop David wrote:
There's at least the possibility that future spacefaring humans will
encounter intelligent beings with a primitive culture. If our
descendants are like us, such an encounter would likely be bad news for
the alien life forms.


Yes this leads to the thing I mentioned about "universal law". (I
need to explain things more clearly...my bad)

I think many people advocating mass space/planet colonization do so
because "If we don't establish a colony, then humans will extinguish
themselves on Earth. We need a life boat."
This is the reason that Stephen Hawkings gives.

I argue against this...or rather, I think it futile.

Think of that scene in "Contact" based on Sagan's book....
Jodie Foster's character encounters the advanced alien and begs
that , for humanities sake, for further contact.
"Humanities in trouble !" argues Foster's character.(words not exact)
"We're confused. Alone ! We need instruction from races that have
already been through this crisis period in development."

The advanced alien declines....not through cruelity, and that's key.
More a tough love type deal.

Humanity isn't going to get any help from anybody.
To get help would be disasterous to all parties...mostly ourselves.

"We learn through our suffering" individuals, nations, species.

It's not loony.
I intuitively know that we won't be able to "conquer space" until
humanity has mastered ourselves and become expert stewards of the
Earth. Because that's the natural way of development.

Froget "saving" humanity through space/ planet colonization.
That's putting the horse before the cart.

A species that has to save itself by GETTING AWAY FROM ITSELF won't
make it. It's a maturity issue.
Technology is not the only measure of a species !

Fred J. McCall wrote:
Ian Parker wrote:

:On 26 Jul, 01:31, Einar wrote:
:
: And, it also often neglect that fixing things over here may require
: resources that are beyond Earth´s own supply capabilities.
:
:
:I think that is absolutely right. Control of global warming will
:ultimately require the control of sunlight from space.
:

This is not the same thing as Einar said. We can do that with purely
Earth-fabricated and Earth-launched material.

:
:Suppose we
:found that we could perform thermonuclear fusion, but that neutrons
:were a bad idea and we needed lots of He3.
:

Why, we would go get some, of course.

:
:Would you need a manned lunar colony? Not necessarily. We would have
:to send self repairing swarms to mine the Moon.
:

We already have such "self repairing swarms". They're called mining
crews.

:
:BTW - Earth is NOT suffering from overpopulation. Demographers say the
opulation will peak at just over 9 billion by 2050. In fact in the
:West we are facing an ageing population.
:

Demographics in the West have nothing to do with whether or not there
is overpopulation.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

That is probably what you are talking about, however I´m not entirelly
clear on preciselly what he is proposing to do, when he talks about
Geoengineering Earth´s radiation ballance.
http://globalecology.stanford.edu/DG..._etal_2003.pdf

What preciselly is he talking about to add to the athmosphere or to
the Earth´s surface?

That paper discusses 'scattering' strategies. I don´t know what the
people you mentioned had in mind:
http://a1692.g.akamai.net/f/1692/204...hse_teller.pdf

Cheers, Einar

GatherNoMoss wrote:


A species that has to save itself by GETTING AWAY FROM ITSELF won't
make it. It's a maturity issue.
Technology is not the only measure of a species !

You are absurd.

To begin with, it´s not possible to move any significant fraction of
humanity beyond Earth, now that´s merelly the Solar system. However, it
´s possible to establish space colonies. Only over the long term will
spacecolonization safe humanity, as after all life on this planet has
only finite time, and that´s without human intereference in natural
cycles.

There is no danger that humans will be spreading beyond the Solar
System anytime soon. So any hypothetical aliens out there will be
quite safe for quite a wile yet. However, we can begin
spacecolonization this century, in this solar system.

Maybe centuries from now the first colonists will arrive at the
neighboring solar systems, but that´s a worry for that time.

Cheers, Einar

On 26 Jul, 21:16, Einar wrote:
GatherNoMoss wrote:

A species that has to save itself by GETTING AWAY FROM ITSELF won't
make it. It's a maturity issue.
Technology is not the only measure of a species !

You are absurd.

To begin with, it´s not possible to move any significant fraction of
humanity beyond Earth, now that´s merelly the Solar system. However, it
´s possible to establish space colonies. Only over the long term will
spacecolonization safe humanity, as after all life on this planet has
only finite time, and that´s without human intereference in natural
cycles.

You are talking here about millions of years. My strictures about
neocons are of course based on present politics. I think over the long
timescale we will move into space, more or less regardless of what we
decide now.

i don't think the ultimate fate of Earth is really asddressing the
point that it is futile to safeguard the human race in the sort/medium
term from the consequences of our own folly. Indeed colonies have
inherent ADDITIONAL risks attached to them.

The problem with Iraq is that decisions were taken by people with
little knowledge. Sending people out to "save the world" will lead to
crucial decisions being taken with even less knowledge. What will a
Martian understand of Arab culture? Yet he might well have the power
to upset the applecart.

There is no danger that humans will be spreading beyond the Solar
System anytime soon. So any hypothetical aliens out there will be
quite safe for quite a wile yet. However, we can begin
spacecolonization this century, in this solar system.

Be careful who you send!

Maybe centuries from now the first colonists will arrive at the
neighboring solar systems, but that´s a worry for that time.

You will need a VN machine and the million kilometer telescope before
you send a VN probe.


- Ian Parker