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#441
September 20th 06, 06:43 PM
posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written
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Congratulations to Lockheed-Martin on winning the Orion program
Fred J. McCall wrote: "Eric Chomko" wrote: : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : :[...] : : : : : : : :The Arpanet turned into the Internet, can't be compared to ISS? : : : : : : : : That's correct. It can't, unless you can demonstrate just exactly how : : : : millions of people are using ISS now. : : : : : : : :Millions will never us ISS, but universities and space related : : : :mnanufacturing companies that effect millions could one day use ISS. : : : : : : So it isn't AT ALL like ARPANet or the Internet. : : : : : :Other than being a publically funded contract that gets turned over to : : :the private sector. : : : : In other words, it isn't AT ALL like ARPANet or the Internet. : : : :Yes it is McClod. I forgot to add the part about boosting the economy : :as well. Yet ANOTHER similarity. : : Please demonstrate this 'boosting you think ISS has engendered. : :Engendered? Shown or demonstrated would be better words. But I show you :that when you show me that the ARPAnet did the same thing. Go look it up. There was essentially a 'ban' on 'commercial speech' initially because the backbone was government funded. This got so hard to enforce that they put in a parallel (commercial) backbone so that we could then pretend that all the commercial stuff was going via that (like the two backbones would pick and choose traffic or something). The point is that ARPAnet became the internet.  on't you get it?I get it. You're stupid. But I still manage to saty one step ahead of you. :My theory of comparing the ISS to the internet has the ISS :where the ARPAnet was say back in the mid to late 70s, still being :built. We should WANT to turn ISS over to the private sector in hopes :that it does something like the ARPAnet did. Except you're comparing apples and aardvarks. No I am comparing govt. projects. Period. Govt projects that then become commercial entities. Period. There was already huge demand for telecom services and infrastructure. There is practically no demand for time in a 'can' in space. Yet. Also, in 1969 few needed what we have as the internet today as computer technology simply didn't exist back then as it does today (i.e. PCs in the home and at work, distributed processing, LANs and WANs). : : : And I could reach up my ass and pull out a gold nugget, but it's : : : pretty unlikely. And so it is with your fantasy, above. : : : : : :You could have swallowed a piece of gold. I'll let your boyfriend deal : : :with the fantasy part. : : : : See above. I'm more likely to **** gold nuggets than that ISS will : : suddenly become this major profit center for industry. : : : :Certainly you won't make money off of ISS, whereas others might. : : And I might just **** gold nuggets ... but the odds of it are pretty : small. : :I'll take my chances with ISS. The odds I'll **** gold are higher. Only if you start swallowing jewelry. : : : : :What if ISS goes to the private sector? Will you be around so I can : : : : :laugh at you? : : : : : : : : I'll be around to laugh at whoever takes over the turkey. : : : : : : : :Surely enough people were interested in the Spacelab project to make : : : :ISS a nice Spacelab replacement? : : : : : : Nope. Costs too much and too hard to maintain. : : : : : idn't stop from having it created in the first place. Your answer is a: : :non-answer. : : : : This just shows that you don't understand how industry works. The : : government does lots of things that no sane business would do, since : : the government doesn't have to turn a profit (or even live within its : : means) and does things for other reasons than businesses do them. : : : :Why was the ISS built? : : That's a great question. Lots of folks have been asking it. I don't : suppose you have a reasonable answer? : :To support various activities not limited to doing space science, life :science, robotics, telepresence and as a outpost in space. And the ROI on all that activity is what? Why did ISS cost so much? Science, to answer your first question. And no doubt because the contractors found ways to gouge the customer....again. Why does war cost so much? Wahat's the ROI? I'd rather havd ISS than this war. How about you? Rather have the war? :The fact :that you lack imagination probably describes more of why you're a lowly :engineer and not a CEO. The fact that you are an idiot probably describes more why you're, well, whatever the hell you are and not allowed to make decisions. I make decisions all the time and I'm an engineer, though not lowly like you. : :Perhaps you simply don't the the "I" part? : : And perhaps I think it's a vast waste of money ever since the price : first doubled (long ago) and the functionality first got descoped : (again, long ago). : :What was Freedom supposed to do and be, Fred? Be ours and make Ronald :Reagan great? It was supposed to do and be bigger and cheaper, Eric. So, if ISS was a smaller white elephant, you'd be happy? Are you really that much of a dope? It was supposed to be in a useful orbit (if it wasn't in the high-inclination orbit it is in we wouldn't need the Shuttle to sustain it). Which part of 'better, faster, cheaper, more sustainable' is it that's escaping you? Faster? 90 minute orbit too slow for you? Again, a cheaper white elephant would make you happy? What would Freedom DO that ISS isn't doing that would make you happy? : : : : : You're the one that thinks we won't have a space transport vehicle from : : : : : 2010 to 2013, simply because that's what the schedule says. Where will : : : : : commercial spaceflight be by then? YOU should be touting that the void : : : : : will be filled by the commercial sector. : : : : : : : : : : Why should I, when I don't necessarily believe that? : : : : : : : : : :Then your whole space tourism comments from a few months back are : : : : :meaningless. : : : : : : : : I don't think people are going to queue up to spend time in the ISS : : : : environment. It's going to take something a lot more like a resort : : : : for that. : : : : : : : :ISS is more apt to do space manufacturing and research like Spacelab on : : : :the shuttle did with the latter. : : : : : : But unlike Spacelab, you have to haul all the stuff up to ISS and : : : install it to do your experiment. Spacelab let you integrate it all : : : on the ground first. : : : : : :What makes you think we can't launch pallets made up on the ground : : :first, and then send them to ISS? : : : : How do you propose to get them inside ISS? Who's up there doing all : : the maintenance work required? : : : :The crew that is there now. A single mission specialist can do most all : :the lab type work. : : So who pays for "the crew that is there now" when you privatize it, : Eric? Who hauls up all the food, etc? Who pays for the crew : exchanges? : :Any corporation, university or other entity that is using the station. Yeah, and they're just lining up to undertake that sort of huge expense, aren't they? Eventually they might. We need to have a breakthrough with manufacturing in zero gee, no atmosphere. Oh, and you deleted this part of the message: Beats the heck out of war: http://nationalpriorities.org/index....per&Itemid=182 Why? :Oh and the military, makes sure DOD funds get used to keep it there. To what purpose? $$$ : I note you avoided the "how do you propose to get them inside ISS" : question for those big experimental and manufacturing pallets that are : going to be made up on the ground. : :I avoided nothing. If Spacelab worked on the gound and then into space :and then back we can do the same using ISS using the chage out crew as :couriers. A space lab on the ISS is fundamental. : : : : :C'mon Fred, you KNEW your answer was : : :flawed when you typed it but typed it anyway, so as to appear to have : : :an answer. : : : : Once again we see that whenever anyone proclaims "and you knew it" or : : "sheesh" it really means they have no real counter-argument. : : : :Yeah, real tell tale sign. : : It certainly is. I can't recall a single time I've seen either used : when it wasn't because the responder had no other real support for : their claims. : :Or, you're too dense to see the truth due to your own limiting filters. :And you do have self-limiting beliefs! Yeah. Everyone is stupid but you, Eric. Of course. At least I'm not a censor like you. That is almost as bad as being a cold caller on the telephone. Almost... : :Just because you lack imagination doesn't : :mean others do. And you ARE intellectually dishonest and often so. : : Yeah, sure, Eric.... : :Yep... snicker Yep, you're mad... : : : What do you propose these folks are going to use for coming and going? : : : : : :COTS. You knew that as well. : : : : Wrong orbit. Inadequate lift. Why don't we see all these people : : going to orbit on COTS now, Eric? : : : :Because the contract was just awarded and STS is still operational : :until 2010. : : What contract is that? I don't see anyone riding COTS, Eric. : :yet Yeah, and if wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets in the sea. : : : One reason Spacelab was nice was that you integrated your experiments : : : on the ground (where it was easy), flew them, AND BROUGHT IT ALL BACK. : : : : : :The data was brought down in real-time and postprocessed as well. The : : :same can be done on ISS. As experiments go, when crew switchouts occur : : :bring down the finished pallets at that time for post experiment : : :results just like with Spacelab on the shuttle. Fred, you're O-fer on : : :this whole ISS-as-Spacelab thread. : : : : What are you going to bring those pallets back down on, Eric? : : : :The same thing that brought them up. Geez, do you honestly think we : :can't bring back pallets? Its like using a pack mule in the Grand : :Canyon, supplies down and trash out. : : Uh, without the Shuttle or something like it that doesn't work, Eric. : Most space transport is one way. You don't bring big heavy labs back. : :But you can and manned space travel, of which space lab work IS :two-way. Usually only for the men. Landing big heavy loads is HARD, Eric. How many ISS segments are they bringing back down for refurbishing? Every single Spacelab mission came back with everything it went up with. ISS is being built in space for use in space. That doesn't mean you can't bring things there and then return them. Also, some things need not come back unless they cease to be working. : : : : : But you don't. That is telling : : : : : that you don't believe in your own "commitment". : : : : : : : : : : What are you babbling about now? I have no commitment to seeing ISS : : : : : serviced by the private sector. : : : : : : : : : :Then you don't believe that space tourism has a future either. NASA is : : : : :now a customer and will be one in the future. Do you think enough : : : : ennis Titos are going to make space tourism an industry with the same: : : :  r more revenue than NASA?: : : : : : : : Poor El Chimpo. He can't see past that white elephant, ISS. : : : : : : : :No, it is folks like you that can't see a use FOR it. : : : : : : Yeah, I have this nasty penchant for reality. : : : : : :No, you're stuck in your own ****... : : : : And perhaps your view that reality is **** explains your posting : : style... : : : :You are the one saying we can't do it. : : No, I'm the one saying the current Station isn't going to suddenly : become the next Internet. : :Not become the internet, but become *like* the internet as a govt.  rogram turned over to industry.But industry doesn't WANT it, Eric. Yet. : :Get out of the way of those that : :are doing it, okay? : : Sure. Where would I find those folks? Don't see any from here. : :Fred, let JSC build it and turn it over to GSFC to run, okay? Then you :see what ISS is good for. Ok. Let me not pay for it. The operations, sure. The building of it? No! JSC took their part plus the part from MSFC away from MSFC, so let JSC finish it. If they then want moon, Mars and beyond, fine, turn ISS over to the near-earth people to use. Eric, we've been waiting to see what it's good for for decades now. All we've seen is capability cuts and price increases. And we STILL don't see what it's good for. No we, Fred, you. : : : : : And even if I did, the notion that : : : : : the private sector would ever take it over remains ludicrous. : : : : : : : : : :Turned over just like the Arpanet was. You are aware of the Arpanet, : : : : :right? : : : : : : : : But who'd pay for it, El Chimpo? : : : : : : : :Anyone that wanted to use its facilities, just like the way Spacelab : : : :modules were used on the shuttle. That included ESA, NASDA, NASA and : : : thers.: : : : : : So where are the customers? Who's lining up? : : : : : :Life sciences, microgravity, robotics, telepresence, astronomy...the : : :list is long. Check the Spacelab manifest at the time of the Columbia : : :disaster. : : : : How many of them are lined up for ISS without getting a free ride, : : Eric? Name names. : : : :Look here first: : :http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/st..._manifest.html : : Nothing but governments. In other words, it's all free ride. : :Many spacelab missions were related to schools (GAS projects, etc.). Free rides. TANSTAAFL MF :But I wouldn't want to turn away ESA or NASDA either. I would. Go do the costs/benefits analysis on that one, Eric. You would turn away anyone. And you have to break a few eggs to make a meal. : :The point is that our international partners (I bet you hate them) ... : : Why do you bet that, Eric? Thinking with your stupid stereotypes : again, are you? : :No, thinking about you, McClod. Experience factor based upon you and nly you!Then you're merely a liar, El Chimpo. You're no doubt basing your "I bet you hate them" remark on the same half-vast "experience factor" that has led you to think I live in Orange County. But you never did say where you live, so it might as well be OC until you clarify. : :... are all interested in using ISS. You, being a dimwitted American, can't see : :beyond your own beliefs. : : Not a single private venture among them. How does this support your : claims about how it could be "the next Internet", Eric? : :Look who used the ARPAnet from 1969 until 1984. Go ahead look it up! I don't need to, Eric. I was around then. You're merely insane. No, it was only govt. people and universities. That's it! : : : :The irony of you calling ISS a turkey, etc. is that JSC, THE red state : : : :NASA facility, bascially demanded that it get the ISS project. Went so : : : :far as to steal it away completely from MSFC, when it was a joint : : : roject. Now it would seem that only blue state bleeding heart types: : : :from, say, GSFC, will be the ones to actually make use of that turkey. : : : :So go ahead, Mr. Republican, build the ISS just to get it done and : : : :don't worry about who will actually use it. : : : : : : Eric, in addition to it not all being about you, it isn't all about : : : politics either. : : : : : :Turing ISS over to blue state NASA equates to you calling it a turkey. : : :Red staters don't know what to do with ISS, blue staters do.... : : : : Eric, you're simply insane. : : : :Yep, call your debater 'insane', yeah, that's a sign you win the : :argument. : : You're not a 'debater', Eric. You're dragging your own irrelevant : fantasies in from left field someplace. : :No, I'm showing that you're self-limiting beliefs are politically based No, you're CLAIMING that. You're a stupid liar. How is the asylum? :and that you're pretty much a shallow thinker than never developed the :ability to dream, even a little. Again, you're CLAIMING that. You're merely a stupid liar. Truth really does hurt, doesn't it? :All progress was done by the unreasonable man. YOUR DAMN QUOTE! Note that it says "unreasonable" and not "stupidly deluded". Comments like this is why people killfile you. : : Contrary to what you seem to think, it : : isn't all about you and it isn't all about someone's politics, even if : : you had a clue about them (which you do not). : : : :At the political level it is. : : No, it isn't. And unlike what you apparently do, most of us don't : make our decisions based on 'red state, blue state'. : :So congress people DON'T look out for people of their states, districts :and the like? Well they sure as hell SHOULD be! English not your first language, Eric? Talk about your non sequiturs... We are talking about what politicians do. Sorry you can't follow the thread. : : : It's also not about your stupid mininterpretations of politics. : : : : : :You deserve folks like B-1 Bob Dornan. I'm sure you voted for him. : : : : That would be pretty tough even if I wanted to (which I don't), since : : I don't live in California. As usual, reality doesn't intrude into : : things that El Chimpo is "sure" of. : : : :What state do you live in? I thought you said you were from CA? Did you : :lie about that as well? : : No, you just hallucinated again. I've never said I'm from California. : :Where then? I've lived in Arizona for the last 7 years or so. Texas for the 15 years before that. Colorado for the 3 years before that. South Carolina for the 3 years before that.... Are you starting to get a clue here, Eric? Yeah, you've out of the service for 22 years. Where in AZ? AZ, CA, I was close. : : o: : :you believe that latinas are "hot" like Anuld sez? Haha. : : : : Bonnie Garcia apparently does. : : : :Arnie owes her for that one. : : Only you would think so. : :We'll see. You no doubt will, but you're known to be delusional. Yes, call you're opponent insane and delusional. That's the ticket! Eric -- "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." -- Socrates 
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#442
September 21st 06, 12:27 AM
posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written
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Congratulations to Lockheed-Martin on winning the Orion program
"Eric Chomko" wrote:
: :Fred J. McCall wrote: : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : :Rand Simberg wrote: : : : : On 14 Sep 2006 13:14:36 -0700, in a place far, far away, "Eric Chomko" : : : : made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such : : : : a way as to indicate that: : : : : : : : : :You deserve folks like B-1 Bob Dornan. I'm sure you voted for him. : : : : : : : : That would be pretty tough even if I wanted to (which I don't), since : : : : I don't live in California. As usual, reality doesn't intrude into : : : : things that El Chimpo is "sure" of. : : : : : : : : What state do you live in? I thought you said you were from CA? Did you : : : : lie about that as well? : : : : : : : : Even if he did live in California, it's unlikely that he would have : : : : lived in Dornan's district, you moron. : : : : : : : :Me mistaking Fred for an Orange County person isn't moronic, Rant. : : : : : : Actually, yes, it is, El Chimpo. It is quite moronic and apparently : : : relies on you hearing things that no one has ever said. : : : : : : This would explain a lot of your replies.... : : : : : :Huh, so you're not a conservative Republican, but only play one on the : : :internet in USENET? : : : : What does that have to do with your stupid remark that I live in : : California in Dornan's district? : : : :Probably the most conservative area in CA. : : Which still has bugger all to do with your stupid claim that I live : there. : : : Perhaps you would care to describe just which issues you think are the : : benchmark for "conservative Republican" and then describe my positions : : on those issues? : : : :You, Fred, defending Republicans at all cost. : : Oh, I see. You're just a stupid liar. Never mind, then. : :You're not a conservative Republican? That rather depends on what "conservative Republican" means, I expect. Again, why don't you list what you think are the determining benchmark issues for "conservative Republican" and tell me where you think I stand on them? : : Then I'll point out all your mistakes. Up for it? I've offered this : : opportunity to a number of people and have yet to find anyone who : : makes such remarks willing to actually support their claims. : : : :Right Fred. When was the last time you voted for a Democrat? Who was : :it? : : It would have been in 2000. I couldn't tell you who, as it would have : been for some local office or other. I used to spread my votes across : Republicans, Democrats, and Greens. : : I voted for Clinton in 1992 and was a registered Democrat somewhere in : that same time frame. : :I find that surprising, but if you say so... I suspect you find a lot of things in our present reality 'surprising', Eric. : So when was the last time you voted for a Republican for President, El : Chimpo? : :Reagan 1984 So you would be a "conservative Republican" by your rules, wouldn't you? : : Any bets El Chimpo doesn't have the balls to demonstrate yet one more : : time that reality doesn't intrude upon his thinking? : : : :I already did by asking you who you voted for and when? : : No, Eric, since that's not an 'issue'. Liberal and Conservative isn't : defined by party registration. I don't doubt that this will come as a : surprise to you. : :Right, all those liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats are all ver the place.Are you trying to say that you are equating 'conservative' and 'liberal' purely based on PARTY? That's ignorant even for you, Eric. : As I said, Eric doesn't have the balls. : :hahahahahahahahaha, nice try Fred, dupe.... : :It is YOU that has the easy and large buttons to push. You phase me in :the least. And I note you're still running away from the challenge. No balls. : :Also, are you or are you not a registered Republican? Now do you have : :the balls to play? : : This year, yes, but what does that have to do with Liberal or : Conservative, El Chimpo? : :Are you claiming not to be a conservative? On which issue? : :We'll see. : : Yes, and what we'll see is precisely how stupidly immature your : politics are. : :No, Fred, what we see is how way to seriously you take yourself. : :As wise man once said (and you should heed this quote!), "take your job :seriously, never yourself". In other words, you're great at labeling things but lousy at knowing what the labels mean. Pretty much what I expected, Eric. -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#443
September 21st 06, 12:55 AM
posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written
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Congratulations to Lockheed-Martin on winning the Orion program
"Eric Chomko" wrote:
: :Fred J. McCall wrote: : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : :[...] : : : : : : : : : :The Arpanet turned into the Internet, can't be compared to ISS? : : : : : : : : : : That's correct. It can't, unless you can demonstrate just exactly how : : : : : millions of people are using ISS now. : : : : : : : : : :Millions will never us ISS, but universities and space related : : : : :mnanufacturing companies that effect millions could one day use ISS. : : : : : : : : So it isn't AT ALL like ARPANet or the Internet. : : : : : : : :Other than being a publically funded contract that gets turned over to : : : :the private sector. : : : : : : In other words, it isn't AT ALL like ARPANet or the Internet. : : : : : :Yes it is McClod. I forgot to add the part about boosting the economy : : :as well. Yet ANOTHER similarity. : : : : Please demonstrate this 'boosting you think ISS has engendered. : : : :Engendered? Shown or demonstrated would be better words. But I show you : :that when you show me that the ARPAnet did the same thing. : : Go look it up. There was essentially a 'ban' on 'commercial speech' : initially because the backbone was government funded. This got so : hard to enforce that they put in a parallel (commercial) backbone so : that we could then pretend that all the commercial stuff was going via : that (like the two backbones would pick and choose traffic or : something). : :The point is that ARPAnet became the internet. Uh, that's not a 'point', Eric. It's an inappropriate fact you are misusing to try to support your 'point'. : on't you get it?: : I get it. You're stupid. : :But I still manage to saty one step ahead of you. Of course you do, dear boy. Of course you do. : :My theory of comparing the ISS to the internet has the ISS : :where the ARPAnet was say back in the mid to late 70s, still being : :built. We should WANT to turn ISS over to the private sector in hopes : :that it does something like the ARPAnet did. : : Except you're comparing apples and aardvarks. : :No I am comparing govt. projects. Period. Govt projects that then :become commercial entities. Period. Ok, you've found one out of millions of them. What makes you think that the Space Station is another one? : There was already huge : demand for telecom services and infrastructure. There is practically : no demand for time in a 'can' in space. : :Yet. Pretty much 'ever'. What's the operational life of the can, Eric? :Also, in 1969 few needed what we have as the internet today as computer :technology simply didn't exist back then as it does today (i.e. PCs in :the home and at work, distributed processing, LANs and WANs). And you think this means what, precisely? You think sometime in the next 10 years we'll all own rocket ships, or what? : : : : And I could reach up my ass and pull out a gold nugget, but it's : : : : pretty unlikely. And so it is with your fantasy, above. : : : : : : : :You could have swallowed a piece of gold. I'll let your boyfriend deal : : : :with the fantasy part. : : : : : : See above. I'm more likely to **** gold nuggets than that ISS will : : : suddenly become this major profit center for industry. : : : : : :Certainly you won't make money off of ISS, whereas others might. : : : : And I might just **** gold nuggets ... but the odds of it are pretty : : small. : : : :I'll take my chances with ISS. : : The odds I'll **** gold are higher. : :Only if you start swallowing jewelry. At least there's a credible path to get there. What's your credible path for the Space Station? : : : : : :What if ISS goes to the private sector? Will you be around so I can : : : : : :laugh at you? : : : : : : : : : : I'll be around to laugh at whoever takes over the turkey. : : : : : : : : : :Surely enough people were interested in the Spacelab project to make : : : : :ISS a nice Spacelab replacement? : : : : : : : : Nope. Costs too much and too hard to maintain. : : : : : : : idn't stop from having it created in the first place. Your answer is a: : : :non-answer. : : : : : : This just shows that you don't understand how industry works. The : : : government does lots of things that no sane business would do, since : : : the government doesn't have to turn a profit (or even live within its : : : means) and does things for other reasons than businesses do them. : : : : : :Why was the ISS built? : : : : That's a great question. Lots of folks have been asking it. I don't : : suppose you have a reasonable answer? : : : :To support various activities not limited to doing space science, life : :science, robotics, telepresence and as a outpost in space. : : And the ROI on all that activity is what? Why did ISS cost so much? : :Science, to answer your first question. That's not an answer to the question. Is the 'science' done worth the cost of the thing. What's the 'value' of that 'science'? :And no doubt because the :contractors found ways to gouge the customer....again. Yeah, it's always that evil free enterprise system that made your government socialist project fail. And yet you think that same evil free enterprise system will now snatch the thing up and turn it into a silk purse? :Why does war cost so much? Wahat's the ROI? I'm not claiming that private industry is suddenly going to take over the war the way it happened with the Internet. You ARE making that claim with regard to ISS. :I'd rather havd ISS than :this war. How about you? Rather have the war? Irrelevant, since that's not the choice. Personally, I'd rather have neither, but I'm not real wild about Saddam getting out of the box he was in and reinstituting his weapons programs and trouble making ways, either. So, on balance for what we've gotten out of them, I'd rather have had the war. : :The fact : :that you lack imagination probably describes more of why you're a lowly : :engineer and not a CEO. : : The fact that you are an idiot probably describes more why you're, : well, whatever the hell you are and not allowed to make decisions. : :I make decisions all the time What colour socks to wear in the morning isn't usually considered a major decision, Eric. :and I'm an engineer, But not much of one, to judge by your logical processes. :though not lowly like you. Of course, Eric. Whatever you need to believe to get you through the day.... : : :Perhaps you simply don't the the "I" part? : : : : And perhaps I think it's a vast waste of money ever since the price : : first doubled (long ago) and the functionality first got descoped : : (again, long ago). : : : :What was Freedom supposed to do and be, Fred? Be ours and make Ronald : :Reagan great? : : It was supposed to do and be bigger and cheaper, Eric. : :So, if ISS was a smaller white elephant, you'd be happy? If it had all the originally proposed capabilities and cost only twice or so what was originally proposed I would be ECSTATIC, Eric. You don't read very well, do you? "BIGGER and cheaper", Eric. How do you manage to get 'smaller' out of that? As for 'white elephant', if it had cost what it was supposed to and been up when it was supposed to it wouldn't be a 'white elephant'. :Are you really that much of a dope? Do you really read and think this poorly? : It was : supposed to be in a useful orbit (if it wasn't in the high-inclination : orbit it is in we wouldn't need the Shuttle to sustain it). : : Which part of 'better, faster, cheaper, more sustainable' is it that's : escaping you? : :Faster? 90 minute orbit too slow for you? Execution, not flight velocity, you stupid ****. : : : : : : You're the one that thinks we won't have a space transport vehicle from : : : : : : 2010 to 2013, simply because that's what the schedule says. Where will : : : : : : commercial spaceflight be by then? YOU should be touting that the void : : : : : : will be filled by the commercial sector. : : : : : : : : : : : : Why should I, when I don't necessarily believe that? : : : : : : : : : : : :Then your whole space tourism comments from a few months back are : : : : : :meaningless. : : : : : : : : : : I don't think people are going to queue up to spend time in the ISS : : : : : environment. It's going to take something a lot more like a resort : : : : : for that. : : : : : : : : : :ISS is more apt to do space manufacturing and research like Spacelab on : : : : :the shuttle did with the latter. : : : : : : : : But unlike Spacelab, you have to haul all the stuff up to ISS and : : : : install it to do your experiment. Spacelab let you integrate it all : : : : on the ground first. : : : : : : : :What makes you think we can't launch pallets made up on the ground : : : :first, and then send them to ISS? : : : : : : How do you propose to get them inside ISS? Who's up there doing all : : : the maintenance work required? : : : : : :The crew that is there now. A single mission specialist can do most all : : :the lab type work. : : : : So who pays for "the crew that is there now" when you privatize it, : : Eric? Who hauls up all the food, etc? Who pays for the crew : : exchanges? : : : :Any corporation, university or other entity that is using the station. : : Yeah, and they're just lining up to undertake that sort of huge : expense, aren't they? : :Eventually they might. Yeah, and gold nuggets might fly out my butt, too. :We need to have a breakthrough with :manufacturing in zero gee, no atmosphere. Yes, and we need perpetual motion, too, but we're not likely to get it. :Oh, and you deleted this part of the message: :Beats the heck out of war: :http://nationalpriorities.org/index....per&Itemid=182 : :Why? Because? : :Oh and the military, makes sure DOD funds get used to keep it there. : : To what purpose? : :$$$ That's not a 'purpose', you idiot. You really don't get this whole 'budget' thing, do you? : : I note you avoided the "how do you propose to get them inside ISS" : : question for those big experimental and manufacturing pallets that are : : going to be made up on the ground. : : : :I avoided nothing. If Spacelab worked on the gound and then into space : :and then back we can do the same using ISS using the chage out crew as : :couriers. A space lab on the ISS is fundamental. : : : : : : : :C'mon Fred, you KNEW your answer was : : : :flawed when you typed it but typed it anyway, so as to appear to have : : : :an answer. : : : : : : Once again we see that whenever anyone proclaims "and you knew it" or : : : "sheesh" it really means they have no real counter-argument. : : : : : :Yeah, real tell tale sign. : : : : It certainly is. I can't recall a single time I've seen either used : : when it wasn't because the responder had no other real support for : : their claims. : : : :Or, you're too dense to see the truth due to your own limiting filters. : :And you do have self-limiting beliefs! : : Yeah. Everyone is stupid but you, Eric. Of course. : :At least I'm not a censor like you. Excuse me? : : :Just because you lack imagination doesn't : : :mean others do. And you ARE intellectually dishonest and often so. : : : : Yeah, sure, Eric.... : : : :Yep... : : snicker : :Yep, you're mad... Of course, dear boy. Whatever you need to believe to get you through the day. : : : : What do you propose these folks are going to use for coming and going? : : : : : : : :COTS. You knew that as well. : : : : : : Wrong orbit. Inadequate lift. Why don't we see all these people : : : going to orbit on COTS now, Eric? : : : : : :Because the contract was just awarded and STS is still operational : : :until 2010. : : : : What contract is that? I don't see anyone riding COTS, Eric. : : : :yet : : Yeah, and if wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets in the sea. : : : : : One reason Spacelab was nice was that you integrated your experiments : : : : on the ground (where it was easy), flew them, AND BROUGHT IT ALL BACK. : : : : : : : :The data was brought down in real-time and postprocessed as well. The : : : :same can be done on ISS. As experiments go, when crew switchouts occur : : : :bring down the finished pallets at that time for post experiment : : : :results just like with Spacelab on the shuttle. Fred, you're O-fer on : : : :this whole ISS-as-Spacelab thread. : : : : : : What are you going to bring those pallets back down on, Eric? : : : : : :The same thing that brought them up. Geez, do you honestly think we : : :can't bring back pallets? Its like using a pack mule in the Grand : : :Canyon, supplies down and trash out. : : : : Uh, without the Shuttle or something like it that doesn't work, Eric. : : Most space transport is one way. You don't bring big heavy labs back. : : : :But you can and manned space travel, of which space lab work IS : :two-way. : : Usually only for the men. Landing big heavy loads is HARD, Eric. How : many ISS segments are they bringing back down for refurbishing? : :Every single Spacelab mission came back with everything it went up :with. In the Shuttle. The Shuttle is big, expensive, and going away. :ISS is being built in space for use in space. That doesn't mean you :can't bring things there and then return them. Also, some things need :not come back unless they cease to be working. Poor Eric. You really don't get it, do you? : : : : : : But you don't. That is telling : : : : : : that you don't believe in your own "commitment". : : : : : : : : : : : : What are you babbling about now? I have no commitment to seeing ISS : : : : : : serviced by the private sector. : : : : : : : : : : : :Then you don't believe that space tourism has a future either. NASA is : : : : : :now a customer and will be one in the future. Do you think enough : : : : : ennis Titos are going to make space tourism an industry with the same: : : : : r more revenue than NASA?: : : : : : : : : : Poor El Chimpo. He can't see past that white elephant, ISS. : : : : : : : : : :No, it is folks like you that can't see a use FOR it. : : : : : : : : Yeah, I have this nasty penchant for reality. : : : : : : : :No, you're stuck in your own ****... : : : : : : And perhaps your view that reality is **** explains your posting : : : style... : : : : : :You are the one saying we can't do it. : : : : No, I'm the one saying the current Station isn't going to suddenly : : become the next Internet. : : : :Not become the internet, but become *like* the internet as a govt. : rogram turned over to industry.: : But industry doesn't WANT it, Eric. : :Yet. For virtually any value of 'yet'. : : :Get out of the way of those that : : :are doing it, okay? : : : : Sure. Where would I find those folks? Don't see any from here. : : : :Fred, let JSC build it and turn it over to GSFC to run, okay? Then you : :see what ISS is good for. : : Ok. Let me not pay for it. : :The operations, sure. The building of it? No! JSC took their part plus :the part from MSFC away from MSFC, so let JSC finish it. If they then :want moon, Mars and beyond, fine, turn ISS over to the near-earth eople to use.I see. You don't want me to "get out of the way of those that are doing" at all. You want me to PAY for them doing, even though what they're doing is stupid. : Eric, we've been waiting to see what it's good for for decades now. : All we've seen is capability cuts and price increases. And we STILL : don't see what it's good for. : :No we, Fred, you. You really need to get out more, Eric. : : : : : : And even if I did, the notion that : : : : : : the private sector would ever take it over remains ludicrous. : : : : : : : : : : : :Turned over just like the Arpanet was. You are aware of the Arpanet, : : : : : :right? : : : : : : : : : : But who'd pay for it, El Chimpo? : : : : : : : : : :Anyone that wanted to use its facilities, just like the way Spacelab : : : : :modules were used on the shuttle. That included ESA, NASDA, NASA and : : : : thers.: : : : : : : : So where are the customers? Who's lining up? : : : : : : : :Life sciences, microgravity, robotics, telepresence, astronomy...the : : : :list is long. Check the Spacelab manifest at the time of the Columbia : : : :disaster. : : : : : : How many of them are lined up for ISS without getting a free ride, : : : Eric? Name names. : : : : : :Look here first: : : :http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/st..._manifest.html : : : : Nothing but governments. In other words, it's all free ride. : : : :Many spacelab missions were related to schools (GAS projects, etc.). : : Free rides. : :TANSTAAFL MF You really don't understand what that means, do you? GAS *WAS* a free lunch for the 'eaters' of it. : :But I wouldn't want to turn away ESA or NASDA either. : : I would. Go do the costs/benefits analysis on that one, Eric. : :You would turn away anyone. And you have to break a few eggs to make a :meal. Eric spins off into delusion yet again. Oh, and I've had many meals where I didn't have to break any eggs at all. : : :The point is that our international partners (I bet you hate them) ... : : : : Why do you bet that, Eric? Thinking with your stupid stereotypes : : again, are you? : : : :No, thinking about you, McClod. Experience factor based upon you and : nly you!: : Then you're merely a liar, El Chimpo. You're no doubt basing your "I : bet you hate them" remark on the same half-vast "experience factor" : that has led you to think I live in Orange County. : :But you never did say where you live, so it might as well be OC until :you clarify. And this is your idea of 'thinking'? You get to make absurd **** up and it's true until someone brings in an actual fact? : : :... are all interested in using ISS. You, being a dimwitted American, can't see : : :beyond your own beliefs. : : : : Not a single private venture among them. How does this support your : : claims about how it could be "the next Internet", Eric? : : : :Look who used the ARPAnet from 1969 until 1984. Go ahead look it up! : : I don't need to, Eric. I was around then. You're merely insane. : :No, it was only govt. people and universities. That's it! Wrong. : : : : :The irony of you calling ISS a turkey, etc. is that JSC, THE red state : : : : :NASA facility, bascially demanded that it get the ISS project. Went so : : : : :far as to steal it away completely from MSFC, when it was a joint : : : : roject. Now it would seem that only blue state bleeding heart types: : : : :from, say, GSFC, will be the ones to actually make use of that turkey. : : : : :So go ahead, Mr. Republican, build the ISS just to get it done and : : : : :don't worry about who will actually use it. : : : : : : : : Eric, in addition to it not all being about you, it isn't all about : : : : politics either. : : : : : : : :Turing ISS over to blue state NASA equates to you calling it a turkey. : : : :Red staters don't know what to do with ISS, blue staters do.... : : : : : : Eric, you're simply insane. : : : : : :Yep, call your debater 'insane', yeah, that's a sign you win the : : :argument. : : : : You're not a 'debater', Eric. You're dragging your own irrelevant : : fantasies in from left field someplace. : : : :No, I'm showing that you're self-limiting beliefs are politically based : : No, you're CLAIMING that. You're a stupid liar. : :How is the asylum? Oh, it's very nice. Now take your pills like a good boy. : :and that you're pretty much a shallow thinker than never developed the : :ability to dream, even a little. : : Again, you're CLAIMING that. You're merely a stupid liar. : :Truth really does hurt, doesn't it? Not especially. Neither do your deluded lies. That seems to about cover it. : :All progress was done by the unreasonable man. YOUR DAMN QUOTE! : : Note that it says "unreasonable" and not "stupidly deluded". : :Comments like this is why people killfile you. They killfile me because you're stupidly deluded? Gee, I'm doomed, then, because you apparently have your head so up and locked that you'll be stupidly deluded forever. : : : Contrary to what you seem to think, it : : : isn't all about you and it isn't all about someone's politics, even if : : : you had a clue about them (which you do not). : : : : : :At the political level it is. : : : : No, it isn't. And unlike what you apparently do, most of us don't : : make our decisions based on 'red state, blue state'. : : : :So congress people DON'T look out for people of their states, districts : :and the like? Well they sure as hell SHOULD be! : : English not your first language, Eric? Talk about your non : sequiturs... : :We are talking about what politicians do. Sorry you can't follow the :thread. No, Eric, we AREN'T talking about what politicians do. It's hardly a 'red state / blue state' issue. : : : : It's also not about your stupid mininterpretations of politics. : : : : : : : :You deserve folks like B-1 Bob Dornan. I'm sure you voted for him. : : : : : : That would be pretty tough even if I wanted to (which I don't), since : : : I don't live in California. As usual, reality doesn't intrude into : : : things that El Chimpo is "sure" of. : : : : : :What state do you live in? I thought you said you were from CA? Did you : : :lie about that as well? : : : : No, you just hallucinated again. I've never said I'm from California. : : : :Where then? : : I've lived in Arizona for the last 7 years or so. Texas for the 15 : years before that. Colorado for the 3 years before that. South : Carolina for the 3 years before that.... : : Are you starting to get a clue here, Eric? : :Yeah, you've out of the service for 22 years. Better take your shoes off, Eric.... :Where in AZ? Not Orange County. :AZ, CA, I was close. Yeah, you only missed by 500 miles or so geographically and pretty close to infinity culturally. : : : o: : : :you believe that latinas are "hot" like Anuld sez? Haha. : : : : : : Bonnie Garcia apparently does. : : : : : :Arnie owes her for that one. : : : : Only you would think so. : : : :We'll see. : : You no doubt will, but you're known to be delusional. : :Yes, call you're opponent insane and delusional. That's the ticket! 'Opponent'? See why so many people think you're delusional, Eric? -- "The odds get even - You blame the game. The odds get even - The stakes are the same. You bet your life." -- "You Bet Your Life", Rush
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#444
September 21st 06, 07:33 PM
posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written
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Congratulations to Lockheed-Martin on winning the Orion program
Fred J. McCall wrote: "Eric Chomko" wrote: : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : :Rand Simberg wrote: : : : : On 14 Sep 2006 13:14:36 -0700, in a place far, far away, "Eric Chomko" : : : : made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such : : : : a way as to indicate that: : : : : : : : : :You deserve folks like B-1 Bob Dornan. I'm sure you voted for him. : : : : : : : : That would be pretty tough even if I wanted to (which I don't), since : : : : I don't live in California. As usual, reality doesn't intrude into : : : : things that El Chimpo is "sure" of. : : : : : : : : What state do you live in? I thought you said you were from CA? Did you : : : : lie about that as well? : : : : : : : : Even if he did live in California, it's unlikely that he would have : : : : lived in Dornan's district, you moron. : : : : : : : :Me mistaking Fred for an Orange County person isn't moronic, Rant. : : : : : : Actually, yes, it is, El Chimpo. It is quite moronic and apparently : : : relies on you hearing things that no one has ever said. : : : : : : This would explain a lot of your replies.... : : : : : :Huh, so you're not a conservative Republican, but only play one on the : : :internet in USENET? : : : : What does that have to do with your stupid remark that I live in : : California in Dornan's district? : : : :Probably the most conservative area in CA. : : Which still has bugger all to do with your stupid claim that I live : there. : : : Perhaps you would care to describe just which issues you think are the : : benchmark for "conservative Republican" and then describe my positions : : on those issues? : : : :You, Fred, defending Republicans at all cost. : : Oh, I see. You're just a stupid liar. Never mind, then. : :You're not a conservative Republican? That rather depends on what "conservative Republican" means, I expect. Again, why don't you list what you think are the determining benchmark issues for "conservative Republican" and tell me where you think I stand on them? The fact that you used to be Democrat, think of yourself as libertarian but are now a registered Republican. The main issue is that you see Clinton exactly the same way Republicans do because a) he was able to do something none of them could do, and b) he did something many of them did, yet only he got caught at it. A true Democrat would have seen through the politics of the get-Clinton crowd rather than embrace it, as you did. : : Then I'll point out all your mistakes. Up for it? I've offered this : : opportunity to a number of people and have yet to find anyone who : : makes such remarks willing to actually support their claims. : : : :Right Fred. When was the last time you voted for a Democrat? Who was : :it? : : It would have been in 2000. I couldn't tell you who, as it would have : been for some local office or other. I used to spread my votes across : Republicans, Democrats, and Greens. : : I voted for Clinton in 1992 and was a registered Democrat somewhere in : that same time frame. : :I find that surprising, but if you say so... I suspect you find a lot of things in our present reality 'surprising', Eric. Not really. : So when was the last time you voted for a Republican for President, El : Chimpo? : :Reagan 1984 So you would be a "conservative Republican" by your rules, wouldn't you? No, but I was more conservative back then as compared to now. : : Any bets El Chimpo doesn't have the balls to demonstrate yet one more : : time that reality doesn't intrude upon his thinking? : : : :I already did by asking you who you voted for and when? : : No, Eric, since that's not an 'issue'. Liberal and Conservative isn't : defined by party registration. I don't doubt that this will come as a : surprise to you. : :Right, all those liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats are all ver the place.Are you trying to say that you are equating 'conservative' and 'liberal' purely based on PARTY? That's ignorant even for you, Eric. Equate? No. Tell me Fred, what precentage of Democrats are conservative and what precent of Republican are liberal? Are those numbers similar? : As I said, Eric doesn't have the balls. : :hahahahahahahahaha, nice try Fred, dupe.... : :It is YOU that has the easy and large buttons to push. You phase me in :the least. And I note you're still running away from the challenge. No balls. What challenge?! What exactly do you call a challenge, here, Fred? : :Also, are you or are you not a registered Republican? Now do you have : :the balls to play? : : This year, yes, but what does that have to do with Liberal or : Conservative, El Chimpo? : :Are you claiming not to be a conservative? On which issue? Most. : :We'll see. : : Yes, and what we'll see is precisely how stupidly immature your : politics are. : :No, Fred, what we see is how way to seriously you take yourself. : :As wise man once said (and you should heed this quote!), "take your job :seriously, never yourself". In other words, you're great at labeling things but lousy at knowing what the labels mean. Sounds exactly like you with your sig quotes!! Pretty much what I expected, Eric. Yeah, you too... Eric -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#445
September 21st 06, 08:22 PM
posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written
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Congratulations to Lockheed-Martin on winning the Orion program
Fred J. McCall wrote: "Eric Chomko" wrote: : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : :[...] : : : : : : : : : :The Arpanet turned into the Internet, can't be compared to ISS? : : : : : : : : : : That's correct. It can't, unless you can demonstrate just exactly how : : : : : millions of people are using ISS now. : : : : : : : : : :Millions will never us ISS, but universities and space related : : : : :mnanufacturing companies that effect millions could one day use ISS. : : : : : : : : So it isn't AT ALL like ARPANet or the Internet. : : : : : : : :Other than being a publically funded contract that gets turned over to : : : :the private sector. : : : : : : In other words, it isn't AT ALL like ARPANet or the Internet. : : : : : :Yes it is McClod. I forgot to add the part about boosting the economy : : :as well. Yet ANOTHER similarity. : : : : Please demonstrate this 'boosting you think ISS has engendered. : : : :Engendered? Shown or demonstrated would be better words. But I show you : :that when you show me that the ARPAnet did the same thing. : : Go look it up. There was essentially a 'ban' on 'commercial speech' : initially because the backbone was government funded. This got so : hard to enforce that they put in a parallel (commercial) backbone so : that we could then pretend that all the commercial stuff was going via : that (like the two backbones would pick and choose traffic or : something). : :The point is that ARPAnet became the internet. Uh, that's not a 'point', Eric. It's an inappropriate fact you are misusing to try to support your 'point'. And if the ISS gets turned over to the private sector (isn't there a space tourist there right now?!) you'll say what? : on't you get it?: : I get it. You're stupid. : :But I still manage to saty one step ahead of you. Of course you do, dear boy. Of course you do. Yo see a boy, kiss his ass and give him $20. : :My theory of comparing the ISS to the internet has the ISS : :where the ARPAnet was say back in the mid to late 70s, still being : :built. We should WANT to turn ISS over to the private sector in hopes : :that it does something like the ARPAnet did. : : Except you're comparing apples and aardvarks. : :No I am comparing govt. projects. Period. Govt projects that then :become commercial entities. Period. Ok, you've found one out of millions of them. What makes you think that the Space Station is another one? Someone paid $20 million to go there as I'm typing this... : There was already huge : demand for telecom services and infrastructure. There is practically : no demand for time in a 'can' in space. : :Yet. Pretty much 'ever'. What's the operational life of the can, Eric? 50-100 years maybe? :Also, in 1969 few needed what we have as the internet today as computer :technology simply didn't exist back then as it does today (i.e. PCs in :the home and at work, distributed processing, LANs and WANs). And you think this means what, precisely? You think sometime in the next 10 years we'll all own rocket ships, or what? No, but in the next 25-50 years, yes, rockets like jets will be privately owned. : : : : And I could reach up my ass and pull out a gold nugget, but it's : : : : pretty unlikely. And so it is with your fantasy, above. : : : : : : : :You could have swallowed a piece of gold. I'll let your boyfriend deal : : : :with the fantasy part. : : : : : : See above. I'm more likely to **** gold nuggets than that ISS will : : : suddenly become this major profit center for industry. : : : : : :Certainly you won't make money off of ISS, whereas others might. : : : : And I might just **** gold nuggets ... but the odds of it are pretty : : small. : : : :I'll take my chances with ISS. : : The odds I'll **** gold are higher. : :Only if you start swallowing jewelry. At least there's a credible path to get there. What's your credible path for the Space Station? Getting it built by 2010 and keeping it flying for 50 years. By then it WILL have been used by the private sector and you'll have eaten crow. : : : : : :What if ISS goes to the private sector? Will you be around so I can : : : : : :laugh at you? : : : : : : : : : : I'll be around to laugh at whoever takes over the turkey. : : : : : : : : : :Surely enough people were interested in the Spacelab project to make : : : : :ISS a nice Spacelab replacement? : : : : : : : : Nope. Costs too much and too hard to maintain. : : : : : : : idn't stop from having it created in the first place. Your answer is a: : : :non-answer. : : : : : : This just shows that you don't understand how industry works. The : : : government does lots of things that no sane business would do, since : : : the government doesn't have to turn a profit (or even live within its : : : means) and does things for other reasons than businesses do them. : : : : : :Why was the ISS built? : : : : That's a great question. Lots of folks have been asking it. I don't : : suppose you have a reasonable answer? : : : :To support various activities not limited to doing space science, life : :science, robotics, telepresence and as a outpost in space. : : And the ROI on all that activity is what? Why did ISS cost so much? : :Science, to answer your first question. That's not an answer to the question. Is the 'science' done worth the cost of the thing. What's the 'value' of that 'science'? Always a good question. Was the MER project worth it? Voyager? Apollo? The list goes on. :And no doubt because the :contractors found ways to gouge the customer....again. Yeah, it's always that evil free enterprise system that made your government socialist project fail. And yet you think that same evil free enterprise system will now snatch the thing up and turn it into a silk purse? It worked with the ARPAnet!!! haha :Why does war cost so much? Wahat's the ROI? I'm not claiming that private industry is suddenly going to take over the war the way it happened with the Internet. You ARE making that claim with regard to ISS. No, I'm comparing one useless venture with another according to McClod-logic. I'm not sure if you think the war is useless though and just asking to verifiy the equality if it indeed exists in McClod-world. :I'd rather havd ISS than :this war. How about you? Rather have the war? Irrelevant, since that's not the choice. Personally, I'd rather have neither, but I'm not real wild about Saddam getting out of the box he was in and reinstituting his weapons programs and trouble making ways, either. So, on balance for what we've gotten out of them, I'd rather have had the war. Not me, there are ways of dealing with Hussein. NK and Iran are DOING what we feared from Saddam and we are dealing with them without invasion, right? Makes me think that we picked the weakest target and took it from there. : :The fact : :that you lack imagination probably describes more of why you're a lowly : :engineer and not a CEO. : : The fact that you are an idiot probably describes more why you're, : well, whatever the hell you are and not allowed to make decisions. : :I make decisions all the time What colour socks to wear in the morning isn't usually considered a major decision, Eric. Colour? US your second country, McClod? So in what part of the emerald isle were you born in anyway? :and I'm an engineer, But not much of one, to judge by your logical processes. I do just fine and logic is my main game. I have probably forgotten more assembly langages than you know languages be they natural or otherwise! :though not lowly like you. Of course, Eric. Whatever you need to believe to get you through the day.... Yeah, I live to hold people back... : : :Perhaps you simply don't the the "I" part? : : : : And perhaps I think it's a vast waste of money ever since the price : : first doubled (long ago) and the functionality first got descoped : : (again, long ago). : : : :What was Freedom supposed to do and be, Fred? Be ours and make Ronald : :Reagan great? : : It was supposed to do and be bigger and cheaper, Eric. : :So, if ISS was a smaller white elephant, you'd be happy? If it had all the originally proposed capabilities and cost only twice or so what was originally proposed I would be ECSTATIC, Eric. You don't read very well, do you? "BIGGER and cheaper", Eric. How do you manage to get 'smaller' out of that? Budget. Do I have to spell everything out to you? As for 'white elephant', if it had cost what it was supposed to and been up when it was supposed to it wouldn't be a 'white elephant'. Pray tell, what would it be then? :Are you really that much of a dope? Do you really read and think this poorly? No. (Since Rand killfiled you, I figured I'd give you a Rand-response). : It was : supposed to be in a useful orbit (if it wasn't in the high-inclination : orbit it is in we wouldn't need the Shuttle to sustain it). : : Which part of 'better, faster, cheaper, more sustainable' is it that's : escaping you? : :Faster? 90 minute orbit too slow for you? Execution, not flight velocity, you stupid ****. Temper, temper. I had to explain 'budget' to you and didn't call you an asshole. : : : : : : You're the one that thinks we won't have a space transport vehicle from : : : : : : 2010 to 2013, simply because that's what the schedule says. Where will : : : : : : commercial spaceflight be by then? YOU should be touting that the void : : : : : : will be filled by the commercial sector. : : : : : : : : : : : : Why should I, when I don't necessarily believe that? : : : : : : : : : : : :Then your whole space tourism comments from a few months back are : : : : : :meaningless. : : : : : : : : : : I don't think people are going to queue up to spend time in the ISS : : : : : environment. It's going to take something a lot more like a resort : : : : : for that. : : : : : : : : : :ISS is more apt to do space manufacturing and research like Spacelab on : : : : :the shuttle did with the latter. : : : : : : : : But unlike Spacelab, you have to haul all the stuff up to ISS and : : : : install it to do your experiment. Spacelab let you integrate it all : : : : on the ground first. : : : : : : : :What makes you think we can't launch pallets made up on the ground : : : :first, and then send them to ISS? : : : : : : How do you propose to get them inside ISS? Who's up there doing all : : : the maintenance work required? : : : : : :The crew that is there now. A single mission specialist can do most all : : :the lab type work. : : : : So who pays for "the crew that is there now" when you privatize it, : : Eric? Who hauls up all the food, etc? Who pays for the crew : : exchanges? : : : :Any corporation, university or other entity that is using the station. : : Yeah, and they're just lining up to undertake that sort of huge : expense, aren't they? : :Eventually they might. Yeah, and gold nuggets might fly out my butt, too. No, in your case it would be pyrite.  :We need to have a breakthrough with :manufacturing in zero gee, no atmosphere. Yes, and we need perpetual motion, too, but we're not likely to get it. Life is perpetual motion. :Oh, and you deleted this part of the message: :Beats the heck out of war: :http://nationalpriorities.org/index....per&Itemid=182 : :Why? Because? Censor. : :Oh and the military, makes sure DOD funds get used to keep it there. : : To what purpose? : :$$$ That's not a 'purpose', you idiot. You really don't get this whole 'budget' thing, do you? Yes I do. A billion here and a billion there after awhile it starts to add up to real money. McClod, how much more has the war buget overran as compared to the ISS budget? Percentages won't work as well as 'times'. : : I note you avoided the "how do you propose to get them inside ISS" : : question for those big experimental and manufacturing pallets that are : : going to be made up on the ground. : : : :I avoided nothing. If Spacelab worked on the gound and then into space : :and then back we can do the same using ISS using the chage out crew as : :couriers. A space lab on the ISS is fundamental. : : : : : : : :C'mon Fred, you KNEW your answer was : : : :flawed when you typed it but typed it anyway, so as to appear to have : : : :an answer. : : : : : : Once again we see that whenever anyone proclaims "and you knew it" or : : : "sheesh" it really means they have no real counter-argument. : : : : : :Yeah, real tell tale sign. : : : : It certainly is. I can't recall a single time I've seen either used : : when it wasn't because the responder had no other real support for : : their claims. : : : :Or, you're too dense to see the truth due to your own limiting filters. : :And you do have self-limiting beliefs! : : Yeah. Everyone is stupid but you, Eric. Of course. : :At least I'm not a censor like you. Excuse me? You heard me? You've been outted. : : :Just because you lack imagination doesn't : : :mean others do. And you ARE intellectually dishonest and often so. : : : : Yeah, sure, Eric.... : : : :Yep... : : snicker : :Yep, you're mad... Of course, dear boy. Whatever you need to believe to get you through the day. I told you about boys... : : : : What do you propose these folks are going to use for coming and going? : : : : : : : :COTS. You knew that as well. : : : : : : Wrong orbit. Inadequate lift. Why don't we see all these people : : : going to orbit on COTS now, Eric? : : : : : :Because the contract was just awarded and STS is still operational : : :until 2010. : : : : What contract is that? I don't see anyone riding COTS, Eric. : : : :yet : : Yeah, and if wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets in the sea. : : : : : One reason Spacelab was nice was that you integrated your experiments : : : : on the ground (where it was easy), flew them, AND BROUGHT IT ALL BACK. : : : : : : : :The data was brought down in real-time and postprocessed as well. The : : : :same can be done on ISS. As experiments go, when crew switchouts occur : : : :bring down the finished pallets at that time for post experiment : : : :results just like with Spacelab on the shuttle. Fred, you're O-fer on : : : :this whole ISS-as-Spacelab thread. : : : : : : What are you going to bring those pallets back down on, Eric? : : : : : :The same thing that brought them up. Geez, do you honestly think we : : :can't bring back pallets? Its like using a pack mule in the Grand : : :Canyon, supplies down and trash out. : : : : Uh, without the Shuttle or something like it that doesn't work, Eric. : : Most space transport is one way. You don't bring big heavy labs back. : : : :But you can and manned space travel, of which space lab work IS : :two-way. : : Usually only for the men. Landing big heavy loads is HARD, Eric. How : many ISS segments are they bringing back down for refurbishing? : :Every single Spacelab mission came back with everything it went up :with. In the Shuttle. The Shuttle is big, expensive, and going away. Right we needed the shuttle because all lab experiments had to exist within a two week period from start to finish, all parts intact. We needed that space in the cargo bay. Now we don't as we have the luxury of a space station always up in space. So we can take pieces up and return them as needed and not necessarily within the context of a shuttle mission. :ISS is being built in space for use in space. That doesn't mean you :can't bring things there and then return them. Also, some things need :not come back unless they cease to be working. Poor Eric. You really don't get it, do you? I don't get that we can have a permament lab infrastructure in space rather than have to bring up everything in the cargo bay of the shuttle and bring all back? No Fred, you don't get how much easier having ISS working, will have a positive effect on space lab work. : : : : : : But you don't. That is telling : : : : : : that you don't believe in your own "commitment". : : : : : : : : : : : : What are you babbling about now? I have no commitment to seeing ISS : : : : : : serviced by the private sector. : : : : : : : : : : : :Then you don't believe that space tourism has a future either. NASA is : : : : : :now a customer and will be one in the future. Do you think enough : : : : : ennis Titos are going to make space tourism an industry with the same: : : : : r more revenue than NASA?: : : : : : : : : : Poor El Chimpo. He can't see past that white elephant, ISS. : : : : : : : : : :No, it is folks like you that can't see a use FOR it. : : : : : : : : Yeah, I have this nasty penchant for reality. : : : : : : : :No, you're stuck in your own ****... : : : : : : And perhaps your view that reality is **** explains your posting : : : style... : : : : : :You are the one saying we can't do it. : : : : No, I'm the one saying the current Station isn't going to suddenly : : become the next Internet. : : : :Not become the internet, but become *like* the internet as a govt. : rogram turned over to industry.: : But industry doesn't WANT it, Eric. : :Yet. For virtually any value of 'yet'. Right now someone paid $20 million to go there. Right now! Now I think that that is more like a stunt rather than true industry but the thing isn't built yet and it is still getting people to pay for access to it. : : :Get out of the way of those that : : :are doing it, okay? : : : : Sure. Where would I find those folks? Don't see any from here. : : : :Fred, let JSC build it and turn it over to GSFC to run, okay? Then you : :see what ISS is good for. : : Ok. Let me not pay for it. : :The operations, sure. The building of it? No! JSC took their part plus :the part from MSFC away from MSFC, so let JSC finish it. If they then :want moon, Mars and beyond, fine, turn ISS over to the near-earth eople to use.I see. You don't want me to "get out of the way of those that are doing" at all. You want me to PAY for them doing, even though what they're doing is stupid. Right, that is just like I feel about the war, so between you and me it looks like a wash. Maybe if you looked at your taxes going toward the war and mine going toward ISS it would feel or be better? Deal? : Eric, we've been waiting to see what it's good for for decades now. : All we've seen is capability cuts and price increases. And we STILL : don't see what it's good for. : :No we, Fred, you. You really need to get out more, Eric. : : : : : : And even if I did, the notion that : : : : : : the private sector would ever take it over remains ludicrous. : : : : : : : : : : : :Turned over just like the Arpanet was. You are aware of the Arpanet, : : : : : :right? : : : : : : : : : : But who'd pay for it, El Chimpo? : : : : : : : : : :Anyone that wanted to use its facilities, just like the way Spacelab : : : : :modules were used on the shuttle. That included ESA, NASDA, NASA and : : : : thers.: : : : : : : : So where are the customers? Who's lining up? : : : : : : : :Life sciences, microgravity, robotics, telepresence, astronomy...the : : : :list is long. Check the Spacelab manifest at the time of the Columbia : : : :disaster. : : : : : : How many of them are lined up for ISS without getting a free ride, : : : Eric? Name names. : : : : : :Look here first: : : :http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/st..._manifest.html : : : : Nothing but governments. In other words, it's all free ride. : : : :Many spacelab missions were related to schools (GAS projects, etc.). : : Free rides. : :TANSTAAFL MF You really don't understand what that means, do you? GAS *WAS* a free lunch for the 'eaters' of it. No they still had to work and provide results. What was free was the ride to space not the time used to create the experiment, produce the tests and publish the results. Think about a scholarship. Do they **** you off as a "free ride", too? : :But I wouldn't want to turn away ESA or NASDA either. : : I would. Go do the costs/benefits analysis on that one, Eric. : :You would turn away anyone. And you have to break a few eggs to make a :meal. Eric spins off into delusion yet again. Oh, and I've had many meals where I didn't have to break any eggs at all. But never an omelette unless you used fake eggs. : : :The point is that our international partners (I bet you hate them) ... : : : : Why do you bet that, Eric? Thinking with your stupid stereotypes : : again, are you? : : : :No, thinking about you, McClod. Experience factor based upon you and : nly you!: : Then you're merely a liar, El Chimpo. You're no doubt basing your "I : bet you hate them" remark on the same half-vast "experience factor" : that has led you to think I live in Orange County. : :But you never did say where you live, so it might as well be OC until :you clarify. And this is your idea of 'thinking'? You get to make absurd **** up and it's true until someone brings in an actual fact? : : :... are all interested in using ISS. You, being a dimwitted American, can't see : : :beyond your own beliefs. : : : : Not a single private venture among them. How does this support your : : claims about how it could be "the next Internet", Eric? : : : :Look who used the ARPAnet from 1969 until 1984. Go ahead look it up! : : I don't need to, Eric. I was around then. You're merely insane. : :No, it was only govt. people and universities. That's it! Wrong. Who else? The Source or Well? When did they start? Before them, then. : : : : :The irony of you calling ISS a turkey, etc. is that JSC, THE red state : : : : :NASA facility, bascially demanded that it get the ISS project. Went so : : : : :far as to steal it away completely from MSFC, when it was a joint : : : : roject. Now it would seem that only blue state bleeding heart types: : : : :from, say, GSFC, will be the ones to actually make use of that turkey. : : : : :So go ahead, Mr. Republican, build the ISS just to get it done and : : : : :don't worry about who will actually use it. : : : : : : : : Eric, in addition to it not all being about you, it isn't all about : : : : politics either. : : : : : : : :Turing ISS over to blue state NASA equates to you calling it a turkey. : : : :Red staters don't know what to do with ISS, blue staters do.... : : : : : : Eric, you're simply insane. : : : : : :Yep, call your debater 'insane', yeah, that's a sign you win the : : :argument. : : : : You're not a 'debater', Eric. You're dragging your own irrelevant : : fantasies in from left field someplace. : : : :No, I'm showing that you're self-limiting beliefs are politically based : : No, you're CLAIMING that. You're a stupid liar. : :How is the asylum? Oh, it's very nice. Now take your pills like a good boy. Yes, things are much better at the asylum now that you're running the show. : :and that you're pretty much a shallow thinker than never developed the : :ability to dream, even a little. : : Again, you're CLAIMING that. You're merely a stupid liar. : :Truth really does hurt, doesn't it? Not especially. Neither do your deluded lies. That seems to about cover it. : :All progress was done by the unreasonable man. YOUR DAMN QUOTE! : : Note that it says "unreasonable" and not "stupidly deluded". : :Comments like this is why people killfile you. They killfile me because you're stupidly deluded? No, you think people that killfile yoiu are stupidly deluded. Gee, I'm doomed, then, because you apparently have your head so up and locked that you'll be stupidly deluded forever. You tell virtually every single poster that disagrees with you that they have their head up their ass and the only common link to all this is you. Ummmm..... : : : Contrary to what you seem to think, it : : : isn't all about you and it isn't all about someone's politics, even if : : : you had a clue about them (which you do not). : : : : : :At the political level it is. : : : : No, it isn't. And unlike what you apparently do, most of us don't : : make our decisions based on 'red state, blue state'. : : : :So congress people DON'T look out for people of their states, districts : :and the like? Well they sure as hell SHOULD be! : : English not your first language, Eric? Talk about your non : sequiturs... : :We are talking about what politicians do. Sorry you can't follow the :thread. No, Eric, we AREN'T talking about what politicians do. It's hardly a 'red state / blue state' issue. : : : : It's also not about your stupid mininterpretations of politics. : : : : : : : :You deserve folks like B-1 Bob Dornan. I'm sure you voted for him. : : : : : : That would be pretty tough even if I wanted to (which I don't), since : : : I don't live in California. As usual, reality doesn't intrude into : : : things that El Chimpo is "sure" of. : : : : : :What state do you live in? I thought you said you were from CA? Did you : : :lie about that as well? : : : : No, you just hallucinated again. I've never said I'm from California. : : : :Where then? : : I've lived in Arizona for the last 7 years or so. Texas for the 15 : years before that. Colorado for the 3 years before that. South : Carolina for the 3 years before that.... : : Are you starting to get a clue here, Eric? : :Yeah, you've out of the service for 22 years. Better take your shoes off, Eric.... What are you bleating about? :Where in AZ? Not Orange County. :AZ, CA, I was close. Yeah, you only missed by 500 miles or so geographically and pretty close to infinity culturally. Not any more. AZ is getting many folks that left CA these days. : : : o: : : :you believe that latinas are "hot" like Anuld sez? Haha. : : : : : : Bonnie Garcia apparently does. : : : : : :Arnie owes her for that one. : : : : Only you would think so. : : : :We'll see. : : You no doubt will, but you're known to be delusional. : :Yes, call you're opponent insane and delusional. That's the ticket! 'Opponent'? See why so many people think you're delusional, Eric? Yeah, we're on the same side. Seems that delusional and insane are correct terms and it's really a matter at whom they are properly directed. Eric -- "The odds get even - You blame the game. The odds get even - The stakes are the same. You bet your life." -- "You Bet Your Life", Rush
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#446
September 22nd 06, 06:12 AM
posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written
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Congratulations to Lockheed-Martin on winning the Orion program
"Eric Chomko" wrote:
: :Fred J. McCall wrote: : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : : : :Rand Simberg wrote: : : : : : On 14 Sep 2006 13:14:36 -0700, in a place far, far away, "Eric Chomko" : : : : : made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such : : : : : a way as to indicate that: : : : : : : : : : : :You deserve folks like B-1 Bob Dornan. I'm sure you voted for him. : : : : : : : : : : That would be pretty tough even if I wanted to (which I don't), since : : : : : I don't live in California. As usual, reality doesn't intrude into : : : : : things that El Chimpo is "sure" of. : : : : : : : : : : What state do you live in? I thought you said you were from CA? Did you : : : : : lie about that as well? : : : : : : : : : : Even if he did live in California, it's unlikely that he would have : : : : : lived in Dornan's district, you moron. : : : : : : : : : :Me mistaking Fred for an Orange County person isn't moronic, Rant. : : : : : : : : Actually, yes, it is, El Chimpo. It is quite moronic and apparently : : : : relies on you hearing things that no one has ever said. : : : : : : : : This would explain a lot of your replies.... : : : : : : : :Huh, so you're not a conservative Republican, but only play one on the : : : :internet in USENET? : : : : : : What does that have to do with your stupid remark that I live in : : : California in Dornan's district? : : : : : :Probably the most conservative area in CA. : : : : Which still has bugger all to do with your stupid claim that I live : : there. : : : : : Perhaps you would care to describe just which issues you think are the : : : benchmark for "conservative Republican" and then describe my positions : : : on those issues? : : : : : :You, Fred, defending Republicans at all cost. : : : : Oh, I see. You're just a stupid liar. Never mind, then. : : : :You're not a conservative Republican? : : That rather depends on what "conservative Republican" means, I expect. : Again, why don't you list what you think are the determining benchmark : issues for "conservative Republican" and tell me where you think I : stand on them? : :The fact that you used to be Democrat, think of yourself as libertarian :but are now a registered Republican. The main issue is that you see :Clinton exactly the same way Republicans do because a) he was able to :do something none of them could do, and b) he did something many of :them did, yet only he got caught at it. : :A true Democrat would have seen through the politics of the get-Clinton :crowd rather than embrace it, as you did. Is any of that actually supposed to make sense, Eric? If you think that's some kind of answer to my question, you need to put down the bong and chill out for a day or two. : : : Then I'll point out all your mistakes. Up for it? I've offered this : : : opportunity to a number of people and have yet to find anyone who : : : makes such remarks willing to actually support their claims. : : : : : :Right Fred. When was the last time you voted for a Democrat? Who was : : :it? : : : : It would have been in 2000. I couldn't tell you who, as it would have : : been for some local office or other. I used to spread my votes across : : Republicans, Democrats, and Greens. : : : : I voted for Clinton in 1992 and was a registered Democrat somewhere in : : that same time frame. : : : :I find that surprising, but if you say so... : : I suspect you find a lot of things in our present reality : 'surprising', Eric. : :Not really. Too dull normal to manage surprise, I expect. : : So when was the last time you voted for a Republican for President, El : : Chimpo? : : : :Reagan 1984 : : So you would be a "conservative Republican" by your rules, wouldn't : you? : :No, but I was more conservative back then as compared to now. And so we see that Eric can't even maintain consistency for even a moment. : : : Any bets El Chimpo doesn't have the balls to demonstrate yet one more : : : time that reality doesn't intrude upon his thinking? : : : : : :I already did by asking you who you voted for and when? : : : : No, Eric, since that's not an 'issue'. Liberal and Conservative isn't : : defined by party registration. I don't doubt that this will come as a : : surprise to you. : : : :Right, all those liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats are all : ver the place.: : Are you trying to say that you are equating 'conservative' and : 'liberal' purely based on PARTY? That's ignorant even for you, Eric. : :Equate? No. Tell me Fred, what precentage of Democrats are conservative :and what precent of Republican are liberal? Are those numbers similar? On what issue, Eric? : : As I said, Eric doesn't have the balls. : : : :hahahahahahahahaha, nice try Fred, dupe.... : : : :It is YOU that has the easy and large buttons to push. You phase me in : :the least. : : And I note you're still running away from the challenge. No balls. : :What challenge?! What exactly do you call a challenge, here, Fred? The one you keep running from, Eric. : : :Also, are you or are you not a registered Republican? Now do you have : : :the balls to play? : : : : This year, yes, but what does that have to do with Liberal or : : Conservative, El Chimpo? : : : :Are you claiming not to be a conservative? : : On which issue? : :Most. Most of which issues, Eric? : : :We'll see. : : : : Yes, and what we'll see is precisely how stupidly immature your : : politics are. : : : :No, Fred, what we see is how way to seriously you take yourself. : : : :As wise man once said (and you should heed this quote!), "take your job : :seriously, never yourself". : : In other words, you're great at labeling things but lousy at knowing : what the labels mean. : :Sounds exactly like you with your sig quotes!! Poor Eric. He thinks everyone else's understanding of things is as poor as his own. : Pretty much what I expected, Eric. : :Yeah, you too... snicker -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn
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#447
September 22nd 06, 07:01 AM
posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written
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Congratulations to Lockheed-Martin on winning the Orion program
"Eric Chomko" wrote:
: :Fred J. McCall wrote: : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : : : : : : :Fred J. McCall wrote: : : : : : "Eric Chomko" wrote: : : : : :[...] : : : : : : : : : : : :The Arpanet turned into the Internet, can't be compared to ISS? : : : : : : : : : : : : That's correct. It can't, unless you can demonstrate just exactly how : : : : : : millions of people are using ISS now. : : : : : : : : : : : :Millions will never us ISS, but universities and space related : : : : : :mnanufacturing companies that effect millions could one day use ISS. : : : : : : : : : : So it isn't AT ALL like ARPANet or the Internet. : : : : : : : : : :Other than being a publically funded contract that gets turned over to : : : : :the private sector. : : : : : : : : In other words, it isn't AT ALL like ARPANet or the Internet. : : : : : : : :Yes it is McClod. I forgot to add the part about boosting the economy : : : :as well. Yet ANOTHER similarity. : : : : : : Please demonstrate this 'boosting you think ISS has engendered. : : : : : :Engendered? Shown or demonstrated would be better words. But I show you : : :that when you show me that the ARPAnet did the same thing. : : : : Go look it up. There was essentially a 'ban' on 'commercial speech' : : initially because the backbone was government funded. This got so : : hard to enforce that they put in a parallel (commercial) backbone so : : that we could then pretend that all the commercial stuff was going via : : that (like the two backbones would pick and choose traffic or : : something). : : : :The point is that ARPAnet became the internet. : : Uh, that's not a 'point', Eric. It's an inappropriate fact you are : misusing to try to support your 'point'. : :And if the ISS gets turned over to the private sector (isn't there a :space tourist there right now?!) you'll say what? Who's bidding on it, Eric? : : on't you get it?: : : : I get it. You're stupid. : : : :But I still manage to saty one step ahead of you. : : Of course you do, dear boy. Of course you do. : :Yo see a boy, kiss his ass and give him $20. Well, you're all ass, boy, so I guess it's an easy target. However, you're overpricing yourself by at least an order of magnitude. Being a $2 whore is about the highest you can probably aspire to. : : :My theory of comparing the ISS to the internet has the ISS : : :where the ARPAnet was say back in the mid to late 70s, still being : : :built. We should WANT to turn ISS over to the private sector in hopes : : :that it does something like the ARPAnet did. : : : : Except you're comparing apples and aardvarks. : : : :No I am comparing govt. projects. Period. Govt projects that then : :become commercial entities. Period. : : Ok, you've found one out of millions of them. What makes you think : that the Space Station is another one? : :Someone paid $20 million to go there as I'm typing this... And what's it cost to maintain the thing, Eric? Start adding up the numbers. Take off your shoes if necessary. Annual cost to maintain the completed station is about $1.3 billion per year. At $20 million per tourist, you'd need to run 65 tourists through it a year WITH NO INCREASE IN THE CURRENT FLIGHT RATES. And remember you have to keep crews up there to maintain the thing, since you can hardly expect tourists to do that kind of work. Good luck figuring out how to put that together, Eric. : : There was already huge : : demand for telecom services and infrastructure. There is practically : : no demand for time in a 'can' in space. : : : :Yet. : : Pretty much 'ever'. What's the operational life of the can, Eric? : :50-100 years maybe? ROFLMAO!!!! The hardware was built with an intended 30 year operating life (at most), Eric. Nobody expects it to last that long. Planned end of operating life is around 2016. : :Also, in 1969 few needed what we have as the internet today as computer : :technology simply didn't exist back then as it does today (i.e. PCs in : :the home and at work, distributed processing, LANs and WANs). : : And you think this means what, precisely? You think sometime in the : next 10 years we'll all own rocket ships, or what? : :No, but in the next 25-50 years, yes, rockets like jets will be rivately owned.You know, that's what people were saying 25 years ago, too. It was easier to believe then. : : : : : And I could reach up my ass and pull out a gold nugget, but it's : : : : : pretty unlikely. And so it is with your fantasy, above. : : : : : : : : : :You could have swallowed a piece of gold. I'll let your boyfriend deal : : : : :with the fantasy part. : : : : : : : : See above. I'm more likely to **** gold nuggets than that ISS will : : : : suddenly become this major profit center for industry. : : : : : : : :Certainly you won't make money off of ISS, whereas others might. : : : : : : And I might just **** gold nuggets ... but the odds of it are pretty : : : small. : : : : : :I'll take my chances with ISS. : : : : The odds I'll **** gold are higher. : : : :Only if you start swallowing jewelry. : : At least there's a credible path to get there. What's your credible : path for the Space Station? : :Getting it built by 2010 and keeping it flying for 50 years. By then it :WILL have been used by the private sector and you'll have eaten crow. And it will have been dead for at least 35 years. Jesus, Eric, do you EVER know anything about the things you natter on about? : : : : : : :What if ISS goes to the private sector? Will you be around so I can : : : : : : :laugh at you? : : : : : : : : : : : : I'll be around to laugh at whoever takes over the turkey. : : : : : : : : : : : :Surely enough people were interested in the Spacelab project to make : : : : : :ISS a nice Spacelab replacement? : : : : : : : : : : Nope. Costs too much and too hard to maintain. : : : : : : : : : idn't stop from having it created in the first place. Your answer is a: : : : :non-answer. : : : : : : : : This just shows that you don't understand how industry works. The : : : : government does lots of things that no sane business would do, since : : : : the government doesn't have to turn a profit (or even live within its : : : : means) and does things for other reasons than businesses do them. : : : : : : : :Why was the ISS built? : : : : : : That's a great question. Lots of folks have been asking it. I don't : : : suppose you have a reasonable answer? : : : : : :To support various activities not limited to doing space science, life : : :science, robotics, telepresence and as a outpost in space. : : : : And the ROI on all that activity is what? Why did ISS cost so much? : : : :Science, to answer your first question. : : That's not an answer to the question. Is the 'science' done worth the : cost of the thing. What's the 'value' of that 'science'? : :Always a good question. Was the MER project worth it? Voyager? Apollo? :The list goes on. And note that none of those are commercial projects, Eric. You're nattering on about 'private space' taking over ISS. The private economy doesn't work like the government, Eric. No return in sight equates to no investment to begin with. : :And no doubt because the : :contractors found ways to gouge the customer....again. : : Yeah, it's always that evil free enterprise system that made your : government socialist project fail. And yet you think that same evil : free enterprise system will now snatch the thing up and turn it into a : silk purse? : :It worked with the ARPAnet!!! haha No, it didn't. You're still trying to compare apples and aardvarks. : :Why does war cost so much? Wahat's the ROI? : : I'm not claiming that private industry is suddenly going to take over : the war the way it happened with the Internet. You ARE making that : claim with regard to ISS. : :No, I'm comparing one useless venture with another according to :McClod-logic. I'm not sure if you think the war is useless though and :just asking to verifiy the equality if it indeed exists in :McClod-world. Fling some more dung, El Chimpo. It's what one expects from illiterate monkeys. : :I'd rather havd ISS than : :this war. How about you? Rather have the war? : : Irrelevant, since that's not the choice. Personally, I'd rather have : neither, but I'm not real wild about Saddam getting out of the box he : was in and reinstituting his weapons programs and trouble making ways, : either. So, on balance for what we've gotten out of them, I'd rather : have had the war. : :Not me, there are ways of dealing with Hussein. NK and Iran are DOING :what we feared from Saddam and we are dealing with them without :invasion, right? Right now we're FAILING to deal with them, which is not quite the same thing. :Makes me think that we picked the weakest target and :took it from there. I certainly hope so! You'd rather wait and let it get stronger, no doubt. : : :The fact : : :that you lack imagination probably describes more of why you're a lowly : : :engineer and not a CEO. : : : : The fact that you are an idiot probably describes more why you're, : : well, whatever the hell you are and not allowed to make decisions. : : : :I make decisions all the time : : What colour socks to wear in the morning isn't usually considered a : major decision, Eric. : :Colour? US your second country, McClod? So in what part of the emerald :isle were you born in anyway? Gee, what a biting retort. snicker : :and I'm an engineer, : : But not much of one, to judge by your logical processes. : :I do just fine and logic is my main game. BWAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAaaaaahaaaaahahaaaaahahahahha!!!! !!! :I have probably forgotten :more assembly langages than you know languages be they natural or therwise!You should have tried to REMEMBER a bit of skill with "langages" [sic], El Chimpo. : :though not lowly like you. : : Of course, Eric. Whatever you need to believe to get you through the : day.... : :Yeah, I live to hold people back... snicker : : : :Perhaps you simply don't the the "I" part? : : : : : : And perhaps I think it's a vast waste of money ever since the price : : : first doubled (long ago) and the functionality first got descoped : : : (again, long ago). : : : : : :What was Freedom supposed to do and be, Fred? Be ours and make Ronald : : :Reagan great? : : : : It was supposed to do and be bigger and cheaper, Eric. : : : :So, if ISS was a smaller white elephant, you'd be happy? : : If it had all the originally proposed capabilities and cost only twice : or so what was originally proposed I would be ECSTATIC, Eric. : : You don't read very well, do you? "BIGGER and cheaper", Eric. How do : you manage to get 'smaller' out of that? : :Budget. Do I have to spell everything out to you? No. Coherent thought and expression will work fine. Let me know when you're ready to begin. : As for 'white elephant', if it had cost what it was supposed to and : been up when it was supposed to it wouldn't be a 'white elephant'. : :Pray tell, what would it be then? Completed long ago. : :Are you really that much of a dope? : : Do you really read and think this poorly? : :No. (Since Rand killfiled you, I figured I'd give you a Rand-response). You pretend to be an idiot well. : : It was : : supposed to be in a useful orbit (if it wasn't in the high-inclination : : orbit it is in we wouldn't need the Shuttle to sustain it). : : : : Which part of 'better, faster, cheaper, more sustainable' is it that's : : escaping you? : : : :Faster? 90 minute orbit too slow for you? : : Execution, not flight velocity, you stupid ****. : :Temper, temper. I had to explain 'budget' to you and didn't call you an :asshole. I see. You stupidly got something wrong and came back with a stupid explanation, so now you expect tolerance for the next stupid thing from your keyboard? : : : : : : : You're the one that thinks we won't have a space transport vehicle from : : : : : : : 2010 to 2013, simply because that's what the schedule says. Where will : : : : : : : commercial spaceflight be by then? YOU should be touting that the void : : : : : : : will be filled by the commercial sector. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Why should I, when I don't necessarily believe that? : : : : : : : : : : : : : :Then your whole space tourism comments from a few months back are : : : : : : :meaningless. : : : : : : : : : : : : I don't think people are going to queue up to spend time in the ISS : : : : : : environment. It's going to take something a lot more like a resort : : : : : : for that. : : : : : : : : : : : :ISS is more apt to do space manufacturing and research like Spacelab on : : : : : :the shuttle did with the latter. : : : : : : : : : : But unlike Spacelab, you have to haul all the stuff up to ISS and : : : : : install it to do your experiment. Spacelab let you integrate it all : : : : : on the ground first. : : : : : : : : : :What makes you think we can't launch pallets made up on the ground : : : : :first, and then send them to ISS? : : : : : : : : How do you propose to get them inside ISS? Who's up there doing all : : : : the maintenance work required? : : : : : : : :The crew that is there now. A single mission specialist can do most all : : : :the lab type work. : : : : : : So who pays for "the crew that is there now" when you privatize it, : : : Eric? Who hauls up all the food, etc? Who pays for the crew : : : exchanges? : : : : : :Any corporation, university or other entity that is using the station. : : : : Yeah, and they're just lining up to undertake that sort of huge : : expense, aren't they? : : : :Eventually they might. : : Yeah, and gold nuggets might fly out my butt, too. : :No, in your case it would be pyrite. Only for you. : :We need to have a breakthrough with : :manufacturing in zero gee, no atmosphere. : : Yes, and we need perpetual motion, too, but we're not likely to get : it. : :Life is perpetual motion. Wrong. You've convinced me you were wrong above, Eric. You ARE this stupid all the time. : :Oh, and you deleted this part of the message: : :Beats the heck out of war: : :http://nationalpriorities.org/index....per&Itemid=182 : : : :Why? : : Because? : :Censor. Poor Eric. He doesn't know the difference between 'censor' and 'censer'. : : :Oh and the military, makes sure DOD funds get used to keep it there. : : : : To what purpose? : : : :$$$ : : That's not a 'purpose', you idiot. You really don't get this whole : 'budget' thing, do you? : :Yes I do. A billion here and a billion there after awhile it starts to :add up to real money. It's still not a PURPOSE, you silly clot. : : : I note you avoided the "how do you propose to get them inside ISS" : : : question for those big experimental and manufacturing pallets that are : : : going to be made up on the ground. : : : : : :I avoided nothing. If Spacelab worked on the gound and then into space : : :and then back we can do the same using ISS using the chage out crew as : : :couriers. A space lab on the ISS is fundamental. : : : : : : : : : : :C'mon Fred, you KNEW your answer was : : : : :flawed when you typed it but typed it anyway, so as to appear to have : : : : :an answer. : : : : : : : : Once again we see that whenever anyone proclaims "and you knew it" or : : : : "sheesh" it really means they have no real counter-argument. : : : : : : : :Yeah, real tell tale sign. : : : : : : It certainly is. I can't recall a single time I've seen either used : : : when it wasn't because the responder had no other real support for : : : their claims. : : : : : :Or, you're too dense to see the truth due to your own limiting filters. : : :And you do have self-limiting beliefs! : : : : Yeah. Everyone is stupid but you, Eric. Of course. : : : :At least I'm not a censor like you. : : Excuse me? : :You heard me? You've been outted. How's that work, Eric? How could I censor people on Usenet even if I wanted to? See? You really ARE this stupid all the time! : : : :Just because you lack imagination doesn't : : : :mean others do. And you ARE intellectually dishonest and often so. : : : : : : Yeah, sure, Eric.... : : : : : :Yep... : : : : snicker : : : :Yep, you're mad... : : Of course, dear boy. Whatever you need to believe to get you through : the day. : :I told you about boys... And I told you about your delusions of grandeur. : : : : : What do you propose these folks are going to use for coming and going? : : : : : : : : : :COTS. You knew that as well. : : : : : : : : Wrong orbit. Inadequate lift. Why don't we see all these people : : : : going to orbit on COTS now, Eric? : : : : : : : :Because the contract was just awarded and STS is still operational : : : :until 2010. : : : : : : What contract is that? I don't see anyone riding COTS, Eric. : : : : : :yet : : : : Yeah, and if wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets in the sea. : : : : : : : One reason Spacelab was nice was that you integrated your experiments : : : : : on the ground (where it was easy), flew them, AND BROUGHT IT ALL BACK. : : : : : : : : : :The data was brought down in real-time and postprocessed as well. The : : : : :same can be done on ISS. As experiments go, when crew switchouts occur : : : : :bring down the finished pallets at that time for post experiment : : : : :results just like with Spacelab on the shuttle. Fred, you're O-fer on : : : : :this whole ISS-as-Spacelab thread. : : : : : : : : What are you going to bring those pallets back down on, Eric? : : : : : : : :The same thing that brought them up. Geez, do you honestly think we : : : :can't bring back pallets? Its like using a pack mule in the Grand : : : :Canyon, supplies down and trash out. : : : : : : Uh, without the Shuttle or something like it that doesn't work, Eric. : : : Most space transport is one way. You don't bring big heavy labs back. : : : : : :But you can and manned space travel, of which space lab work IS : : :two-way. : : : : Usually only for the men. Landing big heavy loads is HARD, Eric. How : : many ISS segments are they bringing back down for refurbishing? : : : :Every single Spacelab mission came back with everything it went up : :with. : : In the Shuttle. The Shuttle is big, expensive, and going away. : :Right we needed the shuttle because all lab experiments had to exist :within a two week period from start to finish, all parts intact. We :needed that space in the cargo bay. Now we don't as we have the luxury f a space station always up in space. So we can take pieces up and:return them as needed and not necessarily within the context of a :shuttle mission. Eric, you clot, without the Shuttle THERE IS NO WAY TO BRING THEM BACK! : :ISS is being built in space for use in space. That doesn't mean you : :can't bring things there and then return them. Also, some things need : :not come back unless they cease to be working. : : Poor Eric. You really don't get it, do you? : :I don't get that we can have a permament lab infrastructure in space :rather than have to bring up everything in the cargo bay of the shuttle :and bring all back? No Fred, you don't get how much easier having ISS :working, will have a positive effect on space lab work. Poor Eric. He can't even follow a simple logic thread. : : : : : : : But you don't. That is telling : : : : : : : that you don't believe in your own "commitment". : : : : : : : : : : : : : : What are you babbling about now? I have no commitment to seeing ISS : : : : : : : serviced by the private sector. : : : : : : : : : : : : : :Then you don't believe that space tourism has a future either. NASA is : : : : : : :now a customer and will be one in the future. Do you think enough : : : : : : ennis Titos are going to make space tourism an industry with the same: : : : : : r more revenue than NASA?: : : : : : : : : : : : Poor El Chimpo. He can't see past that white elephant, ISS. : : : : : : : : : : : :No, it is folks like you that can't see a use FOR it. : : : : : : : : : : Yeah, I have this nasty penchant for reality. : : : : : : : : : :No, you're stuck in your own ****... : : : : : : : : And perhaps your view that reality is **** explains your posting : : : : style... : : : : : : : :You are the one saying we can't do it. : : : : : : No, I'm the one saying the current Station isn't going to suddenly : : : become the next Internet. : : : : : :Not become the internet, but become *like* the internet as a govt. : : rogram turned over to industry.: : : : But industry doesn't WANT it, Eric. : : : :Yet. : : For virtually any value of 'yet'. : :Right now someone paid $20 million to go there. Right now! Now I think :that that is more like a stunt rather than true industry but the thing :isn't built yet and it is still getting people to pay for access to it. Now take off those shoes and figure out how many of those it takes to get to the $1.3 BILLION dollar operating cost. Oh, and you can't do anything that would increase operating costs to get them up and back, either. Good luck with that. : : : :Get out of the way of those that : : : :are doing it, okay? : : : : : : Sure. Where would I find those folks? Don't see any from here. : : : : : :Fred, let JSC build it and turn it over to GSFC to run, okay? Then you : : :see what ISS is good for. : : : : Ok. Let me not pay for it. : : : :The operations, sure. The building of it? No! JSC took their part plus : :the part from MSFC away from MSFC, so let JSC finish it. If they then : :want moon, Mars and beyond, fine, turn ISS over to the near-earth : eople to use.: : I see. You don't want me to "get out of the way of those that are : doing" at all. You want me to PAY for them doing, even though what : they're doing is stupid. : :Right, that is just like I feel about the war, so between you and me it :looks like a wash. Maybe if you looked at your taxes going toward the :war and mine going toward ISS it would feel or be better? Deal? Poor Eric. He just doesn't get it. : : Eric, we've been waiting to see what it's good for for decades now. : : All we've seen is capability cuts and price increases. And we STILL : : don't see what it's good for. : : : :No we, Fred, you. : : You really need to get out more, Eric. : : : : : : : : And even if I did, the notion that : : : : : : : the private sector would ever take it over remains ludicrous. : : : : : : : : : : : : : :Turned over just like the Arpanet was. You are aware of the Arpanet, : : : : : : :right? : : : : : : : : : : : : But who'd pay for it, El Chimpo? : : : : : : : : : : : :Anyone that wanted to use its facilities, just like the way Spacelab : : : : : :modules were used on the shuttle. That included ESA, NASDA, NASA and : : : : : thers.: : : : : : : : : : So where are the customers? Who's lining up? : : : : : : : : : :Life sciences, microgravity, robotics, telepresence, astronomy...the : : : : :list is long. Check the Spacelab manifest at the time of the Columbia : : : : :disaster. : : : : : : : : How many of them are lined up for ISS without getting a free ride, : : : : Eric? Name names. : : : : : : : :Look here first: : : : :http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/st..._manifest.html : : : : : : Nothing but governments. In other words, it's all free ride. : : : : : :Many spacelab missions were related to schools (GAS projects, etc.). : : : : Free rides. : : : :TANSTAAFL MF : : You really don't understand what that means, do you? GAS *WAS* a free : lunch for the 'eaters' of it. : :No they still had to work and provide results. What was free was the :ride to space not the time used to create the experiment, produce the :tests and publish the results. Think about a scholarship. Do they **** :you off as a "free ride", too? They don't "**** me off", Eric. I just recognize them for what they are. You act as if they constitute 'private enterprise'. They don't. : : :But I wouldn't want to turn away ESA or NASDA either. : : : : I would. Go do the costs/benefits analysis on that one, Eric. : : : :You would turn away anyone. And you have to break a few eggs to make a : :meal. : : Eric spins off into delusion yet again. Oh, and I've had many meals : where I didn't have to break any eggs at all. : :But never an omelette unless you used fake eggs. I don't have an "omelette" [sic] for every meal, Eric. Go up and read what you said. : : : :The point is that our international partners (I bet you hate them) ... : : : : : : Why do you bet that, Eric? Thinking with your stupid stereotypes : : : again, are you? : : : : : :No, thinking about you, McClod. Experience factor based upon you and : : nly you!: : : : Then you're merely a liar, El Chimpo. You're no doubt basing your "I : : bet you hate them" remark on the same half-vast "experience factor" : : that has led you to think I live in Orange County. : : : :But you never did say where you live, so it might as well be OC until : :you clarify. : : And this is your idea of 'thinking'? You get to make absurd **** up : and it's true until someone brings in an actual fact? : : : : :... are all interested in using ISS. You, being a dimwitted American, can't see : : : :beyond your own beliefs. : : : : : : Not a single private venture among them. How does this support your : : : claims about how it could be "the next Internet", Eric? : : : : : :Look who used the ARPAnet from 1969 until 1984. Go ahead look it up! : : : : I don't need to, Eric. I was around then. You're merely insane. : : : :No, it was only govt. people and universities. That's it! : : Wrong. : :Who else? The Source or Well? When did they start? Before them, then. Keep moving those goalposts, Eric. You know, it's a lot easier if you get it right in the first place. Or at least SOMEWHERE along the way. : : : : : :The irony of you calling ISS a turkey, etc. is that JSC, THE red state : : : : : :NASA facility, bascially demanded that it get the ISS project. Went so : : : : : :far as to steal it away completely from MSFC, when it was a joint : : : : : roject. Now it would seem that only blue state bleeding heart types: : : : : :from, say, GSFC, will be the ones to actually make use of that turkey. : : : : : :So go ahead, Mr. Republican, build the ISS just to get it done and : : : : : :don't worry about who will actually use it. : : : : : : : : : : Eric, in addition to it not all being about you, it isn't all about : : : : : politics either. : : : : : : : : : :Turing ISS over to blue state NASA equates to you calling it a turkey. : : : : :Red staters don't know what to do with ISS, blue staters do.... : : : : : : : : Eric, you're simply insane. : : : : : : : :Yep, call your debater 'insane', yeah, that's a sign you win the : : : :argument. : : : : : : You're not a 'debater', Eric. You're dragging your own irrelevant : : : fantasies in from left field someplace. : : : : : :No, I'm showing that you're self-limiting beliefs are politically based : : : : No, you're CLAIMING that. You're a stupid liar. : : : :How is the asylum? : : Oh, it's very nice. Now take your pills like a good boy. : :Yes, things are much better at the asylum now that you're running the :show. You just keep playing with your feces, El Chimpo. : : :and that you're pretty much a shallow thinker than never developed the : : :ability to dream, even a little. : : : : Again, you're CLAIMING that. You're merely a stupid liar. : : : :Truth really does hurt, doesn't it? : : Not especially. Neither do your deluded lies. That seems to about : cover it. : : : :All progress was done by the unreasonable man. YOUR DAMN QUOTE! : : : : Note that it says "unreasonable" and not "stupidly deluded". : : : :Comments like this is why people killfile you. : : They killfile me because you're stupidly deluded? : :No, you think people that killfile yoiu are stupidly deluded. No, Eric, I think YOU are stupidly deluded. : Gee, I'm doomed, : then, because you apparently have your head so up and locked that : you'll be stupidly deluded forever. : :You tell virtually every single poster that disagrees with you that :they have their head up their ass and the only common link to all this :is you. Ummmm..... There goes Eric, hallucinating freely again.... : : : : Contrary to what you seem to think, it : : : : isn't all about you and it isn't all about someone's politics, even if : : : : you had a clue about them (which you do not). : : : : : : : :At the political level it is. : : : : : : No, it isn't. And unlike what you apparently do, most of us don't : : : make our decisions based on 'red state, blue state'. : : : : : :So congress people DON'T look out for people of their states, districts : : :and the like? Well they sure as hell SHOULD be! : : : : English not your first language, Eric? Talk about your non : : sequiturs... : : : :We are talking about what politicians do. Sorry you can't follow the : :thread. : : No, Eric, we AREN'T talking about what politicians do. It's hardly a : 'red state / blue state' issue. : : : : : : It's also not about your stupid mininterpretations of politics. : : : : : : : : : :You deserve folks like B-1 Bob Dornan. I'm sure you voted for him. : : : : : : : : That would be pretty tough even if I wanted to (which I don't), since : : : : I don't live in California. As usual, reality doesn't intrude into : : : : things that El Chimpo is "sure" of. : : : : : : : :What state do you live in? I thought you said you were from CA? Did you : : : :lie about that as well? : : : : : : No, you just hallucinated again. I've never said I'm from California. : : : : : :Where then? : : : : I've lived in Arizona for the last 7 years or so. Texas for the 15 : : years before that. Colorado for the 3 years before that. South : : Carolina for the 3 years before that.... : : : : Are you starting to get a clue here, Eric? : : : :Yeah, you've out of the service for 22 years. : : Better take your shoes off, Eric.... : :What are you bleating about? I've been out of the service for 25 years, not 22, you putz. When the numbers get too big for you to handle, go ahead and take off your shoes so you can count on your toes. : :Where in AZ? : : Not Orange County. : : :AZ, CA, I was close. : : Yeah, you only missed by 500 miles or so geographically and pretty : close to infinity culturally. : :Not any more. AZ is getting many folks that left CA these days. Not so much, Eric. Do you ever get ANYTHING right? : : : : o: : : : :you believe that latinas are "hot" like Anuld sez? Haha. : : : : : : : : Bonnie Garcia apparently does. : : : : : : : :Arnie owes her for that one. : : : : : : Only you would think so. : : : : : :We'll see. : : : : You no doubt will, but you're known to be delusional. : : : :Yes, call you're opponent insane and delusional. That's the ticket! : : 'Opponent'? See why so many people think you're delusional, Eric? : :Yeah, we're on the same side. Seems that delusional and insane are :correct terms and it's really a matter at whom they are properly :directed. Side? See why so many people think you're delusional, Eric? Hint: It's USENET, you silly putz. -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn
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