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  #51  
Old September 3rd 03, 08:02 PM
Paul Maxson
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-- "Moe Blues" wrote in message ...
In article , "Paul Maxson"
wrote:

SNIP
A little understanding would go a long way with my father.

PM


That's just it--I've tried to be understanding, only to be dismissed by
him. Try a little? I've tried A LOT.

It's a two-way street. If he'd be minimally civil with those who are
genuinely curious, it would go a long way toward advancing his cause.

As for his worries that Lockheed reads this group, if he has the
evidence, and it's as rock solid as he claims, he should be doing
everything he possibly can to make sure they come after him. Nothing
would get his conspiracy revealed (and publicized) faster, and it would
also probably lead to someone picking up the reins for the wrongful
dismissal suit he should have filed back when he got walked off the
property.

So gimme a break here. I'd like nothing more (or less) than for him to
lay it out for all to see. I just keep hoping to see something other
than "You're a liar" as a response to reasonable questions.

Moe



My father has his own plans for what he wants to be the final outcome. That is his
business. Ask a question that hasn't been answered here and I will beg him to give
you a response to your liking if the question isn't loaded.

OK here goes.

Insert question he







Dad, please insert answer here. Then we can proceed.






I am trying to help, so let's give it a try. I asked him to enact some filters I do
not know if he did or not so let's at least try this civilly. That's all I can ask.

PM


  #52  
Old September 3rd 03, 08:31 PM
Paul Maxson
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"Moe Blues" wrote in message ...
In article , "Paul Maxson"
wrote:

SNIP
A little understanding would go a long way with my father.

PM


That's just it--I've tried to be understanding, only to be dismissed by
him. Try a little? I've tried A LOT.

It's a two-way street. If he'd be minimally civil with those who are
genuinely curious, it would go a long way toward advancing his cause.

As for his worries that Lockheed reads this group, if he has the
evidence, and it's as rock solid as he claims, he should be doing
everything he possibly can to make sure they come after him. Nothing
would get his conspiracy revealed (and publicized) faster, and it would
also probably lead to someone picking up the reins for the wrongful
dismissal suit he should have filed back when he got walked off the
property.

So gimme a break here. I'd like nothing more (or less) than for him to
lay it out for all to see. I just keep hoping to see something other
than "You're a liar" as a response to reasonable questions.

Moe



See that is the thing. He did sue his employer all the way to the Supreme Court and
I even posted the County, judge and docket number. A little research would reveal
allot of your answers and IIRC he can reopen that case at any time (I could be wrong.)

I believe my father is doing research today elsewhere FYI.

PM


  #53  
Old September 3rd 03, 09:28 PM
Moe Blues
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In article , "John Maxson"
wrote:

Paul Maxson wrote in message
...
-- "Moe Blues" wrote in message

...

So gimme a break here. I'd like nothing more (or less) than
for him to lay it out for all to see. I just keep hoping to see
something other than "You're a liar" as a response to
reasonable questions.


OK here goes.


Dad, please insert answer here. Then we can proceed.


He's totally unreasonable; he's abusive; and he's a liar.
He's burned all his bridges with me; and he knows it.
He's passed the point of no return. (Check his E-mail
address. Nice guy, huh?)

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)


Uh-huh. So much for civility.

Paul, is it any wonder why your father draws the flak he gets?

John, it's a crying shame that you won't (or can't) simply explain and
defend your position without nonsense like this. Quell domage!

Moe

  #54  
Old September 3rd 03, 09:38 PM
Herb Schaltegger
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In article ,
Moe Blues wrote:

John, it's a crying shame that you won't (or can't) simply explain and
defend your position without nonsense like this.


It would only be a shame if his position had enough worth to even merit
defending. It obviously doesn't.

--
Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D.
Reformed Aerospace Engineer
"Heisenberg might have been here."
~ Anonymous
  #55  
Old September 3rd 03, 10:38 PM
Paul Maxson
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"Moe Blues" wrote in message ...
In article , "Paul Maxson"
wrote:

SNIP Mall Guard stuff


I've never bought into any of the hideously personal stuff that goes on
around here, so I hope you'll forgive me for neither noticing nor
caring what people may call you (or any other member of your family).

Moe



Well that certainly is respectable of you. If the whole group were like this
imagine how it could be! Martin Luther King had a dream like that too. Then he was shot :-(
Know what I am saying? Bad analogy but I think you understand about the groups mentality as a whole
on both sides.

If I had the knowledge I would answer your question but I don't and I have never pretended to.
I cannot quote directly from the book but I have a firm grasp on my father's reasoning though.

It would help if you had footage as a reference. It is my understanding that the footage some of
us have will soon be uploaded but no deadlines are permitted (because deadlines suck)
so hang in there and stay civil and it will pay off in spades as the debate continues.

That's really the only advice I have.

Out of curiosity, before my father jumped the gun. What was going to be your question?
______________________________________





_____________________________________

There you go. Get your question archived before the debate?

PM


  #56  
Old September 4th 03, 02:59 AM
Stephen Stocker
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On 2003-09-03, Paul Maxson wrote:
"Moe Blues" wrote in message ...

Paul, the material you posted explains WHAT the boosters did, but not
HOW the boosters crossed.

Look, all I've ever asked of JTM is that he take a few moments to
explain his theory and provide at least some minimal evidence.
Evidently, he considers being asked for explanations to be "abusive."
For the life of me, I don't know why that is. But I do know that it
makes it essentially impossible figure out his reasoning.

Moe


Moe,

If you searched all of his posts and pieced them together you would find the answer.
My father believes that with NASA right is left or vice versa actually left is right I believe.
You need frame by frame video to follow this do you have it?


This seems like a good place to jump in.

I was extracting the E204 video to .png images this morning because I
was fairly sure I was seeing the ID band on the left SRB after the
explosion, and wanted to be sure. I also wanted a better look at the
flare from the right SRB (according to the official version). For me,
that's been a really informative video. But I can't find anything in
it to cast doubt on the Rogers findings as I understand them so far. A
lot of this is still fairly new to me, but for whatever it's worth,
that's what I see.

Today he posted that NASA refused to release the
best video they had available! He is telling you , you just are not reading it. (E-202)
It doesn't help when others (Jon Berndt) claim to have read his testimony to Rogers that
is *sealed*. BS. Why is it sealed anyway? Ever wonder that? Did you even go look to see
what section of the report he testified under? Why don't you try a little Moe?


This was a question I'd been wanting to ask, because I didn't know
your dad did testify. I found his name in Appendix A under "Interviews
on Safety, Reliability and Quality Assurance", but nothing further. Do
you have that testimony? I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I'm
somewhat swamped!

One of the SRB's was cold soaked on the pad prior to launch. You tell me which one.

I am just a layperson why do *I* have to explain this anyway? I read the book
enough to get his theory and it cost me a whopping 35 bucks! It's a worthwhile
read but I will honestly tell you something about my dad.


I honestly wish I had the cash to spare, because whatever I believe,
your father isn't stupid and the book would be worthwhile reading.

He got *screwed* by Lockheed and he knows they read here and he is
not going to tell anyone anything if he thinks they are being antagonistic.
I suspect this might be the case with this thread, knowing my father.


I don't doubt that he got a raw deal, that seems to be almost a rule
among corporations. But I don't think it's a reflection of all
Lockheed employees.

They friggen walked him off the base for being a whistle blower while they
were sending him back and forth from CA to Florida climbing high dangerous ladders
and other crap in an intimidating fashion. Why don't you tell me why they made
him go across the country climbing ladders? When it stinks it stinks period!
What if your employer did that to you?

Let's say you are a cook ok? You find some bad meat and go tell the Manager that
if they make you cook this food it will poison people. They cook it anyway after
you write to the restaurant owner *prior to the food be served* saying it is dangerous.
After people die from the bad meat they make you a dishwasher and tell you to mop floors.
Nice people eh? So you write a book about it after taking it all the way to the Supreme Court.


The questions you ask are legitimate, which is another reason I wish I
had the book! I'm the classic example of a little knowledge being a
dangerous thing, lol.

How the hell would that make *you* feel? Then you are mentioned on a cook newsgroup
and *before* even making a single post in self defense you are called a "crackpot."
Why don't you think about THAT for awhile Moe!


This bothers me also, as I've probably said. And frankly, I'd be
defensive also. The hard part is sorting out who's playing games and
who's really interested. I'm not sure I have any answers. Actually,
I'm not sure why I'm answering questions addressed to Moe, but the
thread struck me as an important one.

He has a *very* good memory of how he was treated in the past.

If you *really* want to understand my fathers position I will try and help.

Go find the post where I paste in very old posts of Oberg, Keller, Spencer and Katz
discussing 51-L YEARS before we came here. Spencer mentions Maxson.
So these people already knew who he was. Then when he comes here they pretend
like they have never even heard of him? Jorge Frank knew too and referenced those posts
in the form of a question about "refusing to share the stage."

Now some Lockheed employee has published full .pdf and web pages against him and you
want him to post his theory story to a crowd like that? Give me a break.


Paul, those web sites (including your dad's) got me more interested in
the subject. I took the .pdf as an attack on a theory, rather than
against a person. I don't think they harm anyone, and they can't
damage the pursuit of truth. Or so I believe!

As late as today he was called a "retired janitor" by the groups leading idiot
and defunct Sergeant and the groups Attorney ordered his son's website be
brought down. I think you understand more than you lead on is what I am saying.


A "retired janitor" is one of the nicer things that guy has called
him, but all he does is make himself look stupid by resorting to that
behavior. This group is well aware of my opinions on *that* subject!

A little understanding would go a long way with my father.


Understanding, common decency and respect always go a long way. I
think that's part of the reason I jumped in here. I think Moe's
genuinely interested, but it may not sound that way in a group which
contains a certain element whose favorite hobby is attacking your
family.

Steve
  #57  
Old September 4th 03, 03:35 AM
Paul Maxson
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"Stephen Stocker" wrote in message ...
On 2003-09-03, Paul Maxson wrote:
This seems like a good place to jump in.

I was extracting the E204 video to .png images this morning because I
was fairly sure I was seeing the ID band on the left SRB after the
explosion, and wanted to be sure. I also wanted a better look at the
flare from the right SRB (according to the official version). For me,
that's been a really informative video. But I can't find anything in
it to cast doubt on the Rogers findings as I understand them so far. A
lot of this is still fairly new to me, but for whatever it's worth,
that's what I see.


E-204 is good, E-202 is better. My knowledge is some have 35mm or worse.
Some may even have 70mm (somewhere.) The closer you get to original the better
imagery you get which is critical for trying to spot what is being discussed.
Some may even have peices of E-204 or E-207. I think it comes down to E-202 70mm telling
the whole story once and for all. That is not available. Why? It seems like
every time someone asks a good question it just generates more questions (ever notice that?)

How long is your E-204 and what is IT made from? 35MM?


Today he posted that NASA refused to release the
best video they had available! He is telling you , you just are not reading it. (E-202)
It doesn't help when others (Jon Berndt) claim to have read his testimony to Rogers that
is *sealed*. BS. Why is it sealed anyway? Ever wonder that? Did you even go look to see
what section of the report he testified under? Why don't you try a little Moe?


This was a question I'd been wanting to ask, because I didn't know
your dad did testify. I found his name in Appendix A under "Interviews
on Safety, Reliability and Quality Assurance", but nothing further. Do
you have that testimony? I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I'm
somewhat swamped!


They sealed his testimony and double restricted it (or so the story goes.)
Obviuosly you can't go around accusing large companies and agencies
of what he has and stay out of jail if you are lying right? Because then
they would have to take it all to trial and they don't want that!

Dad has it on tape and I think the FBI were on tape at some time too.
My dad has lots of tapes..... Lot's of info that paint people in a bad light trust me on that.


I honestly wish I had the cash to spare, because whatever I believe,
your father isn't stupid and the book would be worthwhile reading.


Maybe we can work together on this. How much do you need? I like your cause
that you fight for (from your web page.) I would donate some to it.


I don't doubt that he got a raw deal, that seems to be almost a rule
among corporations. But I don't think it's a reflection of all
Lockheed employees.


Most certainly not but as I posted before being a Whistle Blower sucks. I was one.
What bothers me about Jon's 10 page deal is he doesn't consider my dad a Whistle Blower
but he sites Bjoisly as one (in direct contridiction with Henry Spencer who is more Senior.)
My dad was a Whistle Blower and suffered the consequences of being one and it is
not up to someone like Jon to determine that. He simply goes too far.

The questions you ask are legitimate, which is another reason I wish I
had the book! I'm the classic example of a little knowledge being a
dangerous thing, lol.


Se my response above about your cause.

This bothers me also, as I've probably said. And frankly, I'd be
defensive also. The hard part is sorting out who's playing games and
who's really interested. I'm not sure I have any answers. Actually,
I'm not sure why I'm answering questions addressed to Moe, but the
thread struck me as an important one.


Indeed, the booster crossing if proven correct will say the PCR is wrong!

Paul, those web sites (including your dad's) got me more interested in

the subject. I took the .pdf as an attack on a theory, rather than
against a person. I don't think they harm anyone, and they can't
damage the pursuit of truth. Or so I believe!


Well, that is good to hear. The facts are not fully out to all aspects of Challenger or Columbia
(that is my personal opinion.)


A "retired janitor" is one of the nicer things that guy has called
him, but all he does is make himself look stupid by resorting to that
behavior. This group is well aware of my opinions on *that* subject!


Yeah, not worth even bringing up. Sort of like a hairball.

Understanding, common decency and respect always go a long way. I
think that's part of the reason I jumped in here. I think Moe's
genuinely interested, but it may not sound that way in a group which
contains a certain element whose favorite hobby is attacking your
family.


I think he is too, but I am not my father so it's not up to me. I tried though.


Steve


Thanks,

PM


  #58  
Old September 4th 03, 04:03 AM
Paul Maxson
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"Paul Maxson" wrote in message ...
"Stephen Stocker" wrote in message ...
On 2003-09-03, Paul Maxson wrote:
This seems like a good place to jump in.


Steve,

Just to clarify. The reason I said donate is I know your background and the causes you fight for.
Someone forwarded me your website I didn't go digging it up ok?

More importantly though is to the best of my knowledge 2 "loaners" have been sent out and neither
"loan" went well. One was returned after a very lengthy delay and it had been unbound. The other
kept getting rejected in the mail or whatever the cause was, it too was a huge delay return.

I am not saying this would be an issue with you but my copy is signed to me by my father
and is priceless to me. It is never leaving my house. Hope you understand.

To Leech,

It's not about the money bro.

Thanks,

PM


  #59  
Old September 4th 03, 04:52 AM
Roger Balettie
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"Paul Maxson" wrote:
What bothers me about Jon's 10 page deal is he doesn't consider my dad a

Whistle Blower
but he sites Bjoisly as one (in direct contridiction with Henry Spencer

who is more Senior.)

To be considered a "whistle blower", one must first be correct about the
matter on which the whistle is "blown".

Your father has yet to convince me that he's been correct about any of the
matters on which he "blows"... his whistle.

Roger
--
Roger Balettie
former Flight Dynamics Officer
Space Shuttle Mission Control
http://www.balettie.com/


  #60  
Old September 4th 03, 05:59 AM
Stephen Stocker
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On 2003-09-04, Paul Maxson wrote:
"Stephen Stocker" wrote in message ...
On 2003-09-03, Paul Maxson wrote:
This seems like a good place to jump in.

I was extracting the E204 video to .png images this morning because I
was fairly sure I was seeing the ID band on the left SRB after the
explosion, and wanted to be sure. I also wanted a better look at the
flare from the right SRB (according to the official version). For me,
that's been a really informative video. But I can't find anything in
it to cast doubt on the Rogers findings as I understand them so far. A
lot of this is still fairly new to me, but for whatever it's worth,
that's what I see.


E-204 is good, E-202 is better. My knowledge is some have 35mm or worse.
Some may even have 70mm (somewhere.) The closer you get to original the better
imagery you get which is critical for trying to spot what is being discussed.
Some may even have peices of E-204 or E-207. I think it comes down to E-202 70mm telling
the whole story once and for all. That is not available. Why? It seems like
every time someone asks a good question it just generates more questions (ever notice that?)

How long is your E-204 and what is IT made from? 35MM?


Yeah, I have the 35mm, 45 f/s, 96 seconds. I don't *think* I have
anything from E-202. Looking at the camera locations, it should be in
a good position. And I agree, the closer to an original, the better.
What I don't know is how high the quality was in the originals, and
I'm not too knowledgeable about photography. Or much of anything else
pertaining to any of this, but at least I can say now that I'm not
totally ignorant. LOL.

Today he posted that NASA refused to release the
best video they had available! He is telling you , you just are not reading it. (E-202)
It doesn't help when others (Jon Berndt) claim to have read his testimony to Rogers that
is *sealed*. BS. Why is it sealed anyway? Ever wonder that? Did you even go look to see
what section of the report he testified under? Why don't you try a little Moe?


This was a question I'd been wanting to ask, because I didn't know
your dad did testify. I found his name in Appendix A under "Interviews
on Safety, Reliability and Quality Assurance", but nothing further. Do
you have that testimony? I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I'm
somewhat swamped!


They sealed his testimony and double restricted it (or so the story goes.)
Obviuosly you can't go around accusing large companies and agencies
of what he has and stay out of jail if you are lying right? Because then
they would have to take it all to trial and they don't want that!


Oh, OK. I thought I was losing the rest of my mind, because I found
the name but no testimony!

Dad has it on tape and I think the FBI were on tape at some time too.
My dad has lots of tapes..... Lot's of info that paint people in a bad light trust me on that.


Paul, nothing whatever would surprise me, which is why I'm trying to
sort this out. I haven't automatically dismissed conspiracy theories
for a number of years, and anyone who claims they do doesn't believe
that bin Laden had a hand in the WTC destruction. Weird analogy, my
brain's tired.

I honestly wish I had the cash to spare, because whatever I believe,
your father isn't stupid and the book would be worthwhile reading.


Maybe we can work together on this. How much do you need? I like your cause
that you fight for (from your web page.) I would donate some to it.


Thanks, I appreciate that. I'm hoping I can manage to order it in a
few weeks. Everytime I think I'm ahead, something else breaks, lol!
Most recently, the CD drive went south yesterday morning while I was
extracting stills from the video. The only good thing is that the
price dropped $30 in little more than a year for a faster rewriteable.

Anyway, the point of all that is $35 ordinarily wouldn't be a problem,
even for me.

I don't doubt that he got a raw deal, that seems to be almost a rule
among corporations. But I don't think it's a reflection of all
Lockheed employees.


Most certainly not but as I posted before being a Whistle Blower sucks. I was one.
What bothers me about Jon's 10 page deal is he doesn't consider my dad a Whistle Blower
but he sites Bjoisly as one (in direct contridiction with Henry Spencer who is more Senior.)
My dad was a Whistle Blower and suffered the consequences of being one and it is
not up to someone like Jon to determine that. He simply goes too far.


I think one of the reasons this is such a hot issue is precisely
because it involves your family, Jon's colleagues, and friends of
various people in this group. I think I mentioned once that it's a
*lot* easier for somebody like me to sit back, detached from it all,
and see what everybody's trying to say. Just an opinion, but the more
I read, the more I feel it. It's also why I post so much about the
really abusive things that are said. I feel like doing what you did,
with the "Insert question here" post. Frustrating.

The questions you ask are legitimate, which is another reason I wish I
had the book! I'm the classic example of a little knowledge being a
dangerous thing, lol.


Se my response above about your cause.


I really do appreciate it, but I'm hoping I can manage it shortly. I'd
been thinking about it since I ran across Oversoul's posts a week or
so ago. That was a fascinating collection, and he seemed to be fair in
his representation.

This bothers me also, as I've probably said. And frankly, I'd be
defensive also. The hard part is sorting out who's playing games and
who's really interested. I'm not sure I have any answers. Actually,
I'm not sure why I'm answering questions addressed to Moe, but the
thread struck me as an important one.


Indeed, the booster crossing if proven correct will say the PCR is wrong!


Without a doubt!

Paul, those web sites (including your dad's) got me more interested in

the subject. I took the .pdf as an attack on a theory, rather than
against a person. I don't think they harm anyone, and they can't
damage the pursuit of truth. Or so I believe!


Well, that is good to hear. The facts are not fully out to all aspects of Challenger or Columbia
(that is my personal opinion.)


I can't argue with that, I'm not even through plowing through the
official Challenger report, and haven't done more than glance at the
CAIB report. I think I need 27 hour days!

A "retired janitor" is one of the nicer things that guy has called
him, but all he does is make himself look stupid by resorting to that
behavior. This group is well aware of my opinions on *that* subject!


Yeah, not worth even bringing up. Sort of like a hairball.


LOL. As far as I'm concerned!

Understanding, common decency and respect always go a long way. I
think that's part of the reason I jumped in here. I think Moe's
genuinely interested, but it may not sound that way in a group which
contains a certain element whose favorite hobby is attacking your
family.


I think he is too, but I am not my father so it's not up to me. I tried though.


Well, I can understand, I think. I often wonder who's really serious,
and I also misjudge people's motives. I think it's called being human?

I hope this makes some sense, my poor brain's almost asleep. (Worse
than usual! )

Steve
 




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