The Seeming Demise of the Amateur Astronomer

I have been an Astronomer in the Amateur sense since 1955. My
interests have been mostly in lunar mapping and variable star
observations.

In my early years I contributed mant informal talks and papers to both
scientific and Astronomical Associations. I well remember that
articles which appearred in the popular astronomical press, were of a
more scientific nature than appears in this electronic gathering of so
called amateur astronomers.

On reading the many posts on this newsgroup, it never fails to astound
me how little actual observational information is exchanged between
members.

It would to me seem that Amateur Astronomy has been included in the
rapidly growing list of topics which have been engrossed by the
"Instant Gratification Syndrome"

What do I mean by this statement?

Time was an amateur would spend perhaps quite some time on
observations without any optical aids whatever. Studies of meteor
showers etc with the exchange of observations with ones colleagues.

Step two might have been years with nothing but a binocular or
monocular viewer logging observations of the lunar surface. Only when
one had mastered certain basics would one progress to planetary
observations let alone astrophotography.

In those days the hobby was so much more fullfilling I imagine than
nowadays.

Amateur Astronomy and groups like this one have become arenas for
narcisism, amongst those who sped money on instant gratification.

"My telescope is bigger than yours." "My telescope has this and that
which yours does not"

My CCD has so many more pixels than yours"

Ludicrous rantings of superiority from lunatics who today purchase a
telescope and tomorrow call themselves astronomers!!

There are as I can see only about three proper astronomers worth the
name using this group!!

It is like watching the blind lead the blind.

Whatever happened to publishing astronomical observing logs etc.

But then I expec they are all too busy deciding how to get rid of the
telescope they bought last week for the newest model.

Amateur Astronomy is dead I salute you all in your role in it's demise
into consumerism.

Greg Dortmond.

(Greg Dortmond) wrote:

In those days the hobby was so much more fullfilling I imagine than
nowadays.

Perhaps - perhaps not

Amateur Astronomy and groups like this one have become arenas for
narcisism, amongst those who sped money on instant gratification.

"My telescope is bigger than yours." "My telescope has this and that
which yours does not"

My CCD has so many more pixels than yours"

Ludicrous rantings of superiority from lunatics who today purchase a
telescope and tomorrow call themselves astronomers!!

There is remarkably little of this behaviour on uksa: you are ranting.
There are some good size does matter jokes from time to time - perhaps
you missed the humour.

There are as I can see only about three proper astronomers worth the
name using this group!!

It is like watching the blind lead the blind.

There are 2 or 3 who are leading and are not blind, by your own
admission. If you are one of the unblind, how come I can find no other
post from you in the last few years? Or have you just arrived, looked
at some good natured Christmas trivia and pronounced judgement on that
basis? What price careful long term observation and comparing
observation logs?

Whatever happened to publishing astronomical observing logs etc.

This is the "unless you pulped your own papyrus and collected ink from
your own squid you can't really write" school of thought. I don't
subscribe to it. Astronomy moves on and evolves.

But then I expec they are all too busy deciding how to get rid of the
telescope they bought last week for the newest model.

Amateur Astronomy is dead I salute you all in your role in it's demise
into consumerism.

Greg Dortmond.

Consumerism is not the cause of any demise: the arrival of big
business (Meade and Celesctron in particular) has brought about some
consumerism but it has also brought some brilliant telescopes within
the reach of ordinary people who might never otherwise have got the
astronomy bug.

In the 1950s there were people exchanging logs and publishing good
work - but precious few of them. They are still few but probably more
than then - you may have missed them in the chatter of those who are
working their way towards that position.

Can you imagine anything astronomical getting the media coverage that
astronomy gets today? Do you think they put Beagle 2s separation from
Mars Express on the front pages because nobody gives a toss? The
amount of science programming on TV is many times greater than in the
50s - yes its full of whizzes and bangs but it is hitting an audience
unimaginable during the 50s.

Public interest in astronomy is at an all time high: but its different
from the 50s - not worse, not better but different - and much more
accessible. I salute the role of uksa in helping me (and many, many
others) into a position where we are able to get huge pleasure and
satisfaction from astronomy and any equipment we are lucky enough to
have consumed.

Finally I can think of nothing more calculated to achieve the opposite
of its apparent aim. Your post will either dampen ardour and daunten
astronomy beginners or make them bloody glad they didn't have to learn
their astronomy with you.

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

Greg Dortmond trolled:
[The usual provocative crap]

*PLONK*
--
Stephen Tonkin

On 21 Dec 2003 09:37:49 -0800, (Greg
Dortmond) wrote:

I have been an Astronomer in the Amateur sense since 1955. My
interests have been mostly in lunar mapping and variable star
observations.

In my early years I contributed mant informal talks and papers to both
scientific and Astronomical Associations. I well remember that
articles which appearred in the popular astronomical press, were of a
more scientific nature than appears in this electronic gathering of so
called amateur astronomers.

Never been into variable star observations even in my pre-computer
days. Lunar mapping - imaging records an accurate representation of
the lunar surface devoid of subjectivity. It's just another tool for
recording the lunar surface - as is sketching.

On reading the many posts on this newsgroup, it never fails to astound
me how little actual observational information is exchanged between
members.

I've been through the old style recording handed down through
astronomical societies. I've also seen how some of the results were
regarded from professional circles (ooerr controversial - but true).

It would to me seem that Amateur Astronomy has been included in the
rapidly growing list of topics which have been engrossed by the
"Instant Gratification Syndrome"

How do you regard the title "Amateur"? There are newbies who know
little of the subject right up to the highly advanced amateur who can
produce results of professional quality. Ultimately at the majority
of levels people are out to gain enjoyment from a hobby. They don't
get paid for it, they do it because they like it. If they get
pleasure from 'instant gratification' then so be it. You are
basically inferring that someone cannot call themselves an amateur
astronomer unless they record things according to a set of rules laid
down by a higher authority. No one has the right to dictate this in
an amateur arena. It's elitist.

What do I mean by this statement?

Time was an amateur would spend perhaps quite some time on
observations without any optical aids whatever. Studies of meteor
showers etc with the exchange of observations with ones colleagues.

Lots and lots of information gathered - and where did it all go? I'll
be controversial again - quite a lot of it was collected because it
could be. Whether it was used is another question.

Step two might have been years with nothing but a binocular or
monocular viewer logging observations of the lunar surface. Only when
one had mastered certain basics would one progress to planetary
observations let alone astrophotography.

In those days the hobby was so much more fullfilling I imagine than
nowadays.

Having been through that phase, I find the *hobby* much more
fulfilling thesedays. Being able to record my observations in the
form of an image or as a presentation that I can show to others is
immensely rewarding. It's also pulled a number of others into the
subject because they can finally see what it's all about. This keeps
the hobby alive for future generations.

Amateur Astronomy and groups like this one have become arenas for
narcisism, amongst those who sped money on instant gratification.

"My telescope is bigger than yours." "My telescope has this and that
which yours does not"

My CCD has so many more pixels than yours"

Ludicrous rantings of superiority from lunatics who today purchase a
telescope and tomorrow call themselves astronomers!!

So an imager with good equipment is not an astronomer? What rubbish.
This comes from the "my observations are recorded better than your
observations" elitist era of amateur astronomy.

--
Pete Lawrence
http://www.pbl33.co.uk
Come and visit the "Lunar Parallax Demonstration Project"

Dear Troller,

Thank you for submitting your bait. It has been reviewed by the
USAT committee and they have reached a conclusion:

"Greg Dortmond's troll lacked humor and was far too obvious.
It is clear to us that he is a newbie and should have started
with a subtle troll at first to test the waters. He certainly has
potential as a great troller, but we recommend he take some
lessons from Shawn Grant before submitting any more trolls.

Suggested future improvements include using phrases such as
"you people" or "those people" and including fake laughter such as
"ha ha ha ha." Most importantly, the committee suggest that he
needs to exaggerate more -- Greg need not be limited by facts."

"Greg Dortmond" wrote in message
om...
Snip whatever

And your judgement of the current state of amateur astronomy is based just
on whatever you think you've read in this newsgroup ?
Do you ever get out and meet other amateur astronomers ?

Jeroen.
http://www.smaal.info/astro_en/

"Bob Ames" wrote in message
...

Dear Troller,

Thank you for submitting your bait. It has been reviewed by the
USAT committee and they have reached a conclusion:

"Greg Dortmond's troll lacked humor and was far too obvious.
It is clear to us that he is a newbie and should have started
with a subtle troll at first to test the waters. He certainly has
potential as a great troller, but we recommend he take some
lessons from Shawn Grant before submitting any more trolls.

Suggested future improvements include using phrases such as
"you people" or "those people" and including fake laughter such as
"ha ha ha ha." Most importantly, the committee suggest that he
needs to exaggerate more -- Greg need not be limited by facts."

In article ,
says...

snip a load of clap trap

So why are you here?

No don't bother to answer, I don't care!

PLONK
--

Regards

Nick

...."My telescope is bigger than yours." "My telescope has this and
that
which yours does not" My CCD has so many more pixels than yours"...

That's what consumerism is all about! Telescope and the accompanying
gizmo manufacturers just can't get enough of this. Music to their
ears.
This group doesn't have as much of this as some others. Its a
desirable 'signal' to 'noise' ratio: we need to hear less 'noise'
about the *equipment* - which is after all just a means to an end -
and more 'signal' on the actual *Astronomy* topics on what is seen out
there.

Keep it real...aiii
AA

You've opened a can of worms there!

Can't say I entirely disagree, however most of this consumerism is in the US
(Where else?) - I still think that countries like the UK that require real
dedication (it's not easy to get away from the light pollution or to find a
clear night) have many dedicated 'real' amateur astronomers. They are
probably too busy to go online or are lurking about reading posts waiting
for a real one to respond to.

In my case, I have a telescope, but wouldn't dream of calling myself an
astronomer. That's not because it isn't big or good enough, but because I
have an interest in astronomy but am not dedicated to it or interested in
studying it. I just want to gaze through a telescope and see amazing things
far away.

But there does appear to ba many who think owning a telescope makes them an
astronomer.
The bigger, the more qualified, obviously.

I just don't think that ALL of them are as disinterested or underdeveloped
as you may think. Sometimes, without decent reference material or
understanding 'real' amateur astronomers posting on newsgroups, people would
never know about star logs, how to read star charts (I wish someone could
show me!) or even the idea of swapping observations. To most people, these
ideas may just not have occurred.

Please keep posting your observations, and others will follow.




"Greg Dortmond" wrote in message
om...
I have been an Astronomer in the Amateur sense since 1955. My
interests have been mostly in lunar mapping and variable star
observations.

In my early years I contributed mant informal talks and papers to both
scientific and Astronomical Associations. I well remember that
articles which appearred in the popular astronomical press, were of a
more scientific nature than appears in this electronic gathering of so
called amateur astronomers.

On reading the many posts on this newsgroup, it never fails to astound
me how little actual observational information is exchanged between
members.

It would to me seem that Amateur Astronomy has been included in the
rapidly growing list of topics which have been engrossed by the
"Instant Gratification Syndrome"

What do I mean by this statement?

Time was an amateur would spend perhaps quite some time on
observations without any optical aids whatever. Studies of meteor
showers etc with the exchange of observations with ones colleagues.

Step two might have been years with nothing but a binocular or
monocular viewer logging observations of the lunar surface. Only when
one had mastered certain basics would one progress to planetary
observations let alone astrophotography.

In those days the hobby was so much more fullfilling I imagine than
nowadays.

Amateur Astronomy and groups like this one have become arenas for
narcisism, amongst those who sped money on instant gratification.

"My telescope is bigger than yours." "My telescope has this and that
which yours does not"

My CCD has so many more pixels than yours"

Ludicrous rantings of superiority from lunatics who today purchase a
telescope and tomorrow call themselves astronomers!!

There are as I can see only about three proper astronomers worth the
name using this group!!

It is like watching the blind lead the blind.

Whatever happened to publishing astronomical observing logs etc.

But then I expec they are all too busy deciding how to get rid of the
telescope they bought last week for the newest model.

Amateur Astronomy is dead I salute you all in your role in it's demise
into consumerism.

Greg Dortmond.