Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...

spazhoward wrote:
Somewhere, I still have a copy of "My Weekly Reader" from around 1971
or '72. The cover story was about the design competition for the
future space shuttle, and featured illustrations of 3 different
concepts; all of them huge, and all of them needlessly complex. All
these years later, and I still have the same question that I had in
the 6th grade...

"What happened to project Dyna-Soar?"

Small, reusable lifting bodies mounted on top of Titan-variant
boosters fueled by hypergolic propellants. Get in the truck, push the
START button and "Blast Off!" (well, no, not quite, but a lot closer
than anything we've got now). Leave all of the heavy lifting to the
big, dumb, disposable boosters, that's what they were designed for.


Small spaceplanes are hard to design, as they always end up being
heavier than you thought they would be.
That means they suffer higher G loads and heating during reentry...which
means more heat-shielding...which means more weight... which means
higher reentry temperatures...which means more heat-shielding...
I wrote a posting about this a few years back:

...."here is the basic problem- any manned
aerodynamic vehicle needs certain systems; for on orbit work it needs: Life
support for it's crew, a means to maneuver itself, a means of radiating the
heat created by it's crew and electronics, and sufficient space to carry a
worthwhile mission payload (cargo, passengers, recon gear, death ray, etc.)
Add to this, for landing: landing gear of some sort, heat shielding,
aerodynamic control surfaces, fuel to decelerate from orbit, and avionics
capable of both orbital and atmospheric control.
Right from square one, it's obvious that is quite a bit to pack into a small
vehicle- but it gets worse- the avionics for a thirty foot long shuttle will
be about the same weight as a 130 foot long one...same with life support,
control panel, seats, suits, and crew. Propellant storage tanks will be
about the same thickness. Reaction control systems may be smaller, but will
need all of the valves and pumping systems associated with a large system,
and plumbing of equal tubing thickness to a large system. The amount of
insulation to protect it during re-entry stays the same thickness and weight
per square foot- and you have a lot fewer square feet to give you lift, so
the mass of it goes up proportionately to that of the vehicle-the same
applies to the skinning, and structural members of the machine. Then you hit
the next thorny problem- heat dissipation- the material that keeps the heat
out during re-entry tends to keep it in on-orbit; you need big radiators of
some sort to make this work. We (the U.S.) thought this wouldn't be too
difficult when we designed Dyna-Soar, and watched the weight steadily climb
to where a Gemini capable on-orbit vehicle with a single man crew was going
to need a Titan III or Saturn I to make orbit, all for the sake of greater
cross-range on landing, and gliding in horizontally, the way that God, and
the U.S. Air Force intended spacemen to land!
With true Gallic pride, the French tried the same idea twenty-odd years
later with "Hermes"- and hit the same weight snag, as the vehicle got more
and more complex, to the point where the payload had to be put into a
jettisonable mission module on the back end along with the retrorocket and
other vehicle systems- as it's original payload bay had to be given over to
radiators. The Soviets took a crack at the problem with "Spiral"... and ran
into the same weight-to-mission capability problem.
We tried it again with the HL-20... this time it was going to take a Titan
IV to get it into orbit! And all for some increased cross range on landing-
you will notice that the semi-canceled ISS escape vehicle looks like a
lifting body, re-enters like a lifting body, but floats down to earth under
a parachute- which might make one ask... why not a ballistic capsule? The
argument is "Greater Cross Range For Landing"- but a ballistic capsule could
simply stay in orbit for a turn or two, until a suitable emergency landing
site fell under it's orbital track."
But in order to procure funding, everything was promised to everybody
and we wound up with the beautiful, exquisite mess that is the STS;
not quite the right machine for any mission. And although it sounds
harsh, from an operational standpoint perhaps the worst part is that
no one involved with the STS project seemed to have ever watched any
'50's TV Sci-Fi. If the Space Rangers lost a ship, it was certainly a
tragedy; but there were still 20 (or 50, or 100) more ships in the
fleet. By designing a shuttle large enough to carry IUS boosters into
orbit (oh, and a few passengers, too), we wound up with only a handful
of extremely expensive vehicles, the loss of one of which constituted
1/4 OF THE FLEET in addition to the loss of the crew.

When the X-38 project came along, I thought perhaps some degree of
sanity had prevailed. No such luck. That project apparently made too
much sense, so obviously it had to be cancelled (after all of the
development money was spent, of course). I think maybe you're right,
Pat, the real purpose is just to spend money. After all, they managed
to "downsize" the space station until the redesigns cost more than
building the original concept would have, right?


Yeah, that's how it all ended up.
I've only seen one small spaceplane idea that really impressed me - and
that's the Soviet "Spiral", which is one of the most extraordinary
packaging jobs I've ever laid eyes on...including a escape capsule for
the pilot that separate and do a reentry all on its own. Sort of like a
Dyna-Soar with a Mercury capsule on the front:
http://www.buran.ru/htm/str126.htm
http://www.buran.ru/htm/spiral_5.htm#war
(love the video of it nuking the carrier task force.)
BTW - if Spiral looks a bit familiar:
http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicl...er/DoveTop.htm
It would be fun to know what exactly SAINT II was supposed to have
inside it: http://www.astronautix.com/craft/saintii.htm

Pat

The WEEKLY READER. I remember that issue. I think the cover of that issue
showed the shuttle with the pointy nose, that look more like a conventional
rocket but with wings. The SRBs looked like they came strait off a Titan
III. I have not seen that cover since I was 5, but it stuck in my mind. I
wish I had kept mine.

"Andre Lieven" wrote in message
...
OK, I have to chime in here with a good defense of books. Along
with Sam Cogley, attorney at law... Jim Kirk known him...

Books, very very good. Sam Cogley, twit (played very well by a very good
actor).

It's already essentially impossible to win a case without access to Westlaw
or the equivalent. There's simply too much to simply flip through some
books, outside of small claims court.

On the other hand, folks who enter my office wonder about the 8" thick
unabridged dictionary and other paper references, considering that I have
three computers in the office. It's simple- I can usually look something up
in less time than it takes the computer to boot.

Since I don't have access to Westlaw, I still have a lot of legal books- but
then, I don't do much legally outside of document preparation. If I need to
go to court, I hire a lawyer who has access go Westlaw.

Cogley was wrong- the law is not in the *books*, but in the *words*, and
it's much easier to find the words you need via an online index.

I've seen presentations on e-reader devices, and I see that amazon
is plugging it's latest such device; none of them are as easy and
comfortable to use as a good hard cover book. None require as
little electrical power as a hard cover book. And, so on.

Ebooks won't replace paper books until you can sit on the crapper with one
and curl the pages back (which is a bad idea with most mass-market
paperbacks, since they are often poorly glued), and dogear them to keep
place.

Junking books for the latest
tech fad is not very smart. How many computer data storage
formats have already become obsolete ?

I remember reading about a newspaper which had decided to get rid of its
morgue and to all-electronic. Unfortunately, they discovered that the
microfiche, which covered most of their early and middle years had
deteriorated to the point of being unusable. Fortunately, an old building
was about to be torn down, and as it happens, some boxes containing paper
copies of their earliest editions were found, brittle and yellowed, but
still handy.

As I recall, wasn't it a *paper* edition of a newspaper which alerted SG1
that the friendly aliens weren't so friendly (since the natives had
regressed in technology and no longer had computers)? (The Aschen from
"2010" and "2001")


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Scott Hedrick" wrote:

I remember reading about a newspaper which had decided to get rid of its
morgue and to all-electronic. Unfortunately, they discovered that the
microfiche, which covered most of their early and middle years had
deteriorated to the point of being unusable.

I'm not sure how much I'd buy that - because unless the paper is
fairly unusual that morgue is accessed fairly regularly. (Not to
mention you generally have to work at it to not have fiches survive.)

One problem with digitization though is that digital copies tend to
come from one master - and anything missing from that master is thus
missing from all copies. There was quite the flurry in the RISKS
digest a few years back over this.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On Thu, 1 May 2008 22:50:59 -0400, "Scott Hedrick"
wrote:

Ebooks won't replace paper books until you can sit on the crapper with one
and curl the pages back (which is a bad idea with most mass-market
paperbacks, since they are often poorly glued), and dogear them to keep
place.

....Hear! Hear! My Philips Nino was going to be an E-Book reader when I
retired it, but the short battery life combined with the
smaller-than-paperback page size put an end to that after about a half
a book. "The Name of the Rose" is still on that Nino, now six years
collecting dust, unfinished.

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

On May 1, 10:50 pm, "Scott Hedrick" wrote:
"Andre Lieven" wrote in message

...

OK, I have to chime in here with a good defense of books. Along
with Sam Cogley, attorney at law... Jim Kirk known him...

Books, very very good. Sam Cogley, twit (played very well by a very good
actor).

It's already essentially impossible to win a case without access to Westlaw
or the equivalent. There's simply too much to simply flip through some
books, outside of small claims court.

That depends on the memory skills of the person involved. Certainly
prior
to things like Westlaw, it had to be done.

Some older skills that get replaced by technology are worth
maintaining
for their own sake.

On the other hand, folks who enter my office wonder about the 8" thick
unabridged dictionary and other paper references, considering that I have
three computers in the office. It's simple- I can usually look something up
in less time than it takes the computer to boot.

Since I don't have access to Westlaw, I still have a lot of legal books- but
then, I don't do much legally outside of document preparation. If I need to
go to court, I hire a lawyer who has access go Westlaw.

Cogley was wrong- the law is not in the *books*, but in the *words*, and
it's much easier to find the words you need via an online index.

Again, this depends on personal memory skills, and the words, in his
case,
are in the books.

I've seen presentations on e-reader devices, and I see that amazon
is plugging it's latest such device; none of them are as easy and
comfortable to use as a good hard cover book. None require as
little electrical power as a hard cover book. And, so on.

Ebooks won't replace paper books until you can sit on the crapper with one
and curl the pages back (which is a bad idea with most mass-market
paperbacks, since they are often poorly glued), and dogear them to keep
place.

That wouldn't sell such a device to me, because most of my books are
trade
paperbacks or hardcovers, mostly the latter, and with many oversized
reference books among them, where a paperback page size would be far,
far too small.

Junking books for the latest
tech fad is not very smart. How many computer data storage
formats have already become obsolete ?

I remember reading about a newspaper which had decided to get rid of its
morgue and to all-electronic. Unfortunately, they discovered that the
microfiche, which covered most of their early and middle years had
deteriorated to the point of being unusable. Fortunately, an old building
was about to be torn down, and as it happens, some boxes containing paper
copies of their earliest editions were found, brittle and yellowed, but
still handy.

As I recall, wasn't it a *paper* edition of a newspaper which alerted SG1
that the friendly aliens weren't so friendly (since the natives had
regressed in technology and no longer had computers)? (The Aschen from
"2010" and "2001")

I'd have to look that one up, or re-watch the episodes. Ten seasons is
a
lot of episodes...

Andre

Andre Lieven wrote:

That depends on the memory skills of the person involved. Certainly
prior
to things like Westlaw, it had to be done.

Some older skills that get replaced by technology are worth
maintaining
for their own sake.


In regards to my books, I still have around 400 or so, all pretty much
reference books on various subjects I'm interested in (history, military
systems, ships, mythology, marine biology, space, etc.), so if I want to
find out something on a subject I don't have covered in one of my books,
I can either go to the public or college library in the hopes they have
it, and if they don't, then find it on the Internet using their
computers, or just go after after it myself via the internet from home.
Years back someone said the key moment a Mission Control came when
everyone running a Shuttle mission wasn't looking at the big Apollo-era
display panels, but at their laptop computers.
For me, it came when I wanted to know the wingspan on a WWII Luftwaffe
aircraft, and looked it up on the web rather than walk into my bedroom
and get the info out of a book that I knew had it in it.
It was simply a matter of convenience.
And that's what I think will pretty much make libraries obsolete in
their present form.
There's another advantage in regards to electronic versus paper storage
of literature (besides the lack of paper cuts, no peanut butter stains
on the pages, and no disintegrating bindings... I had the cover
literally fall off of my early 1950's "Guided Missiles" book by Kenneth
Gatland when I opened it last week ), and that's indexing.
Right now, if you want to find something in a book, it means going to
the index and then to multiple pages to find out where that topic you
are looking up is mentioned.
In a digital form that can be done via a term search; and the term will
be highlighted when you view the pages it's on.
that saves time; and that which saves time to accomplish a particular
task is generally considered a good thing.
Wax cylinders went to vinyl LPs, those went to CDs, and those went to MP3s.
In each shift, more music was stored in a smaller form to the point
where you can store thousands of songs on one DVD or a fairly small hard
drive by today's standards.
Purists will still be spraying their LPs with de-ionized water and
electrostatic guns, before spending fifteen minutes carefully lowering
that $1,000 cartridge onto them while wearing a surgeon's mask and
rubber gloves, but things do march forward, and like I said in another
post, the real future flies past the anticipated and awaited one like
the Roadrunner runs past Wile E. Coyote and his Acme rocket belt.
If you are over around 30 years old at the moment, then you are
effectively obsolete - and what you consider revolutionary is probably
considered laughably old-fashioned by the kids just getting into
college, rather like H.G. Wells being a supporter of "Free Love" in the
movie "Time After Time". :-D

Pat

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Scott Hedrick" wrote:

I remember reading about a newspaper which had decided to get rid of its
morgue and to all-electronic. Unfortunately, they discovered that the
microfiche, which covered most of their early and middle years had
deteriorated to the point of being unusable.

I'm not sure how much I'd buy that - because unless the paper is
fairly unusual that morgue is accessed fairly regularly. (Not to
mention you generally have to work at it to not have fiches survive.)

One problem with digitization though is that digital copies tend to
come from one master - and anything missing from that master is thus
missing from all copies. There was quite the flurry in the RISKS
digest a few years back over this.

I suspect that was the problem- the fiche could still be read, but would
have made very poor scans.

I didn't consider it important enough at the time to keep track of the
article- but I *do* clip a lot of articles.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"OM" wrote in message
...
"The Name of the Rose" is still on that Nino, now six years
collecting dust, unfinished.

Worth finishing. The movie was nice as well.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Andre Lieven" wrote in message
...
On May 1, 10:50 pm, "Scott Hedrick" wrote:
"Andre Lieven" wrote in message

...

OK, I have to chime in here with a good defense of books. Along
with Sam Cogley, attorney at law... Jim Kirk known him...

Books, very very good. Sam Cogley, twit (played very well by a very good
actor).

It's already essentially impossible to win a case without access to
Westlaw
or the equivalent. There's simply too much to simply flip through some
books, outside of small claims court.

That depends on the memory skills of the person involved. Certainly
prior
to things like Westlaw, it had to be done.

Yes, it was *drudge work*. Lincoln made some comment about the lawyer not
being worth his hire without doing the drudge work. Then Saint West and
Saint Shepard devised legal indexing methods.

Moreover, recently I was able to access Westlaw and download 230MB of
references as Word files in about 16 hours. I couldn't even find much of
that material via paper, because it would have taken too long. I'm trying to
update my textbook on quieting titles, and what would have taken months by
hand (and a great deal more money) took a few hours.

Some older skills that get replaced by technology are worth
maintaining
for their own sake.

I agree. Tangentally, it's also important to maintain pure genetic stocks of
legacy crops, if only to occasionally reinvigorate the hybrids.

That wouldn't sell such a device to me, because most of my books are
trade
paperbacks or hardcovers, mostly the latter, and with many oversized
reference books among them, where a paperback page size would be far,
far too small.

Magazines, then. It seems to be the only place I can catch up on my tech
manuals.


As I recall, wasn't it a *paper* edition of a newspaper which alerted SG1
that the friendly aliens weren't so friendly (since the natives had
regressed in technology and no longer had computers)? (The Aschen from
"2010" and "2001")

I'd have to look that one up, or re-watch the episodes. Ten seasons is
a
lot of episodes...

"200" has got to be a classic. I found the last episode to be a bit
emotional. Can't believe Carter blew the chance to squeeze Thor's little
grey butt...


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **