The stars in the heavens - God promise to Abraham

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:42:37 -0600, Chris L Peterson
spake thusly:



Some scientists speak out on unscientific matters.

....and call it "science"!


But the knowledge collected by scientists is, largely,
of high quality.

No, it isn't! Not any more!


Again, what scientists _do_ is science, what they say is not.

Again, that's crap! This discussion started off about
the Bible and what we both know is the opposite,
evolution! And so, my comments are made within
that context and what evolution is, is a religion!

unless of course, you want to prove it? And that
doesn't mean playing games, like citing evolution
like different types of dogs and then saying it proves
particles to people, playing the switch game midstream!

No offense, I'm not angry at you, but I can see your
word games beginning, unfortunately. (:

--

"If girls with large breasts work at Hooters,
where do girls with one leg work? scroll down


IHop! scroll down


Of course, tipping your waitress takes on
a whole new meaning!

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 11:11:31 +1000, SolomonW
spake thusly:


Of course. And the knowledge obtained by science can be wrong as well,

A fundamental rule of logic is that a truth cannot give a false but a
false can give a truth.

If knowledge is obtained by science and it is wrong. Then it means
logically that science is wrong. QED

Exactly my point! You put it quite well.

--

"The first time is happenstance. The second time
is coincidence. The third time is the enemy
attacking." - Ian Flemming

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 14:18:09 -0600, Greg Crinklaw
spake thusly:


Pastor Dave wrote:

Scientists can be and are quite a number of times.
But folks are dumb enough to think that what the
scientists say, is science, when lots of times, it's
just their faith.

In my experience people are "dumb" when they don't
understand what science is. And worse they don't often
realize it.

This is the part where you are trying to set yourself up
to be able to claim that anyone who disagrees with you,
"just doesn't understand science".


We teach kids facts

No, you teach them your religion, when it comes to
evolution. Unless you wish to prove it? And that does
not mean citing examples of dog breeds and then
switching midstream and pretending your proved
particles to people is a fact.


but we aren't careful enough to teach them what
science *is* and many teachers don't understand
it themselves.

Right. It's everyone's fault except those who teach
fantasies as a reality.


Yet at the same time everyone takes it for granted
that everyone knows what science is and how it works.
The very fact that some people are "dumb enough"
(your words) to confuse science with faith is a prime
example.

You are lying about what I said! I said that people
are dumb enough to think what scientists say is science,
when lots of times, it's just their faith!

But thank you for proving how dishonest you are!
People like you know that what they believe is just
a fantasy and always try to set themselves up in
the discussion ahead of time, to be the scientific
heroes, when in reality, they're trying to hide from
having to answer the tough questions, which you
know what they are!


It is painfully obvious to me that you, for instance,
don't really understand what science is and how
it works. Of course, you *think* you do...

It is painfully obvious to me that you are a stupid man,
for thinking that your rhetoric could fool me! But you
spend your time playing this crap game, hoping that
the other person is ignorant, especially when you see
"pastor" and assume that you, in your ignorance of
science and how it works, can intimidate me!

The truth is, if you knew anything about science,
then you wouldn't have said what you said, not would
you have lied about what I said, which you did and
which is why you snipped my words before responding,
nor would you have pretended that you can read my
mind, son!

I am well acquainted with the various sciences involved
and you son, are just another moron trying to play the
game you were taught to play, thinking that your time
spent seeing how to fool most people, equates to real
and actual research!

--

Bathroom Fact: While a few hundred bacteria are
typically found on a toilet seat, over six thousand
are typically found on the faucet to the bathroom sink.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 14:11:07 -0700 (PDT), oriel36
spake thusly:


I am a Christian who just happens to post in
sci.astro.amateur and the responses you are
receiving are from particpants of that group,
they actually have distinct set of beliefs which
can be isolated and studied and generally
their beliefs come under a system that really
only took off in the late 17th century via Newton,
this system is the empirical cult and it promotes
the so-called 'scientific method'.

Actually, Newton didn't promote what these people
are saying. But I thank you for making the effort
to try and peacefully clear this matter up. You are
very kind for doing so.

I did not intentionally post into your group. I simply
responded to a message that I saw, but again, thanks.


In all respects,the fault does not exist with the empiricists
who are going to believe whatever they wish irrespective
of what is brought before them to demonstrate where
they take a wrong turn

Really? So tell us... Who is to blame for them deciding
to believe whatever they want to, despite the facts and
then proclaiming it to be "science"?

Gee, I guess it's the fault of the listeners who think that
scientists are supposed to be honest???


the fault is with those who do not take the time to look
at what our ancestors thought as they looked into the
celestial arena.

That's a load of crap! You have just said that it's okay
for these idiots to lie and it's the fault of the people
for actually believing that they did the science that
they're paid to do and claim that they do!

Get a grip, son!

--

When Christianity becomes religion it leaves the heart hungry.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 11:11:31 +1000, SolomonW
wrote:

A fundamental rule of logic is that a truth cannot give a false but a
false can give a truth.

If knowledge is obtained by science and it is wrong. Then it means
logically that science is wrong. QED

That statement simply means you fail to understand (1) logic, (2)
science, or both.

You can't compare science to knowledge, as in the logical construction
"science implies knowledge". They are different categories of things.
Knowledge is a collection of facts (which may or may not be true);
science is a process for arriving at facts. The scientific process can
be perfect, and still produce incorrect results. The observations may be
bad, the logic used in deriving the theory may be wrong, the
interpretation of observations or results may be wrong. None of those
failures of input to the process means the process itself is faulty.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 11:06:51 +1000, SolomonW
wrote:

Again we are back to a little. A little means there WAS.

In the context of this discussion, no. I am unaware on _any_ science to
be found in either the OT or NT (which where this thread started). By
that, I mean that there doesn't seem to be any description of knowledge
gained by any sort of scientific method. Similarly, there is no evidence
of any cosmological knowledge deeper than that which can be observed
with the senses alone. Of course, that is why most of the cosmological
knowledge to be found there is wrong.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:06:51 -0400, Pastor Dave
wrote:

Again, that's crap! This discussion started off about
the Bible and what we both know is the opposite,
evolution! And so, my comments are made within
that context and what evolution is, is a religion!

I don't see what evolution has to do with anything. The question was
whether a particular statement in the OT, which could be seen as
astronomical, was scientific (or at least, if it suggested that some
sort of optical instrumentation was used).

The idea that the bible and evolution are the opposite of each other is
simply bizarre.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:40:07 -0600, Chris L Peterson
spake thusly:


On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:06:51 -0400,
Pastor Dave wrote:

Again, that's crap! This discussion started off about
the Bible and what we both know is the opposite,
evolution! And so, my comments are made within
that context and what evolution is, is a religion!

I don't see what evolution has to do with anything.
The question was whether a particular statement
in the OT, which could be seen as astronomical,
was scientific (or at least, if it suggested that some
sort of optical instrumentation was used).

That is not what I responded to.


The idea that the bible and evolution are the opposite
of each other is simply bizarre.

Only to the bizarre. But they are completely opposed.
Since you said they're not, prove it.

--

"Don't give up. Moses was once a basket case."

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:23:47 -0600, Chris L Peterson
spake thusly:


On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 11:11:31 +1000, SolomonW
wrote:

A fundamental rule of logic is that a truth cannot give a false but a
false can give a truth.

If knowledge is obtained by science and it is wrong. Then it means
logically that science is wrong. QED

That statement simply means you fail to understand (1) logic,
(2) science, or both.

No, it is your lack of logic that caused the issue here.
And you can keep repeating your claim that we don't
understand science if we disagree with you, but
repeating it doesn't make it true.


You can't compare science to knowledge,

You said...

"And the knowledge obtained by science can be wrong as well"

If the knowledge was obtained to science, then your statement
is not logical. But since you keep trying to equate science
to the conclusions of scientists, that is where you falter.

--

Christians, keep the faith -- but not from others!

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Pastor Dave wrote:
I am well acquainted with the various sciences involved
and you son, are just another moron trying to play the
game you were taught to play, thinking that your time
spent seeing how to fool most people, equates to real
and actual research!

I, "father", am the guy who just won this argument. The evidence? You
responded with irrationality and personal insults. Apparently that's
the best you can do.

No real surprise there.

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
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