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Commander's Decision?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 9th 07, 06:24 AM posted to sci.space.shuttle
Jim in Houston[_2_]
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Posts: 163
Default Commander's Decision?

News reports state that the "Crew Office" made the proposal that if
all four ECO's were not working properly they would not fly. Is this a
case of the CDR putting his foot down, so to speak, and saying I, or
we, don't want to, or will not fly, if the system is not working 100%?
If so, has this ever happened before?
Thanks,
Jim in Houston.

Contrary to popular opinion RN does not mean Real Nerd!
Teddy Roosevelt's mother said: "Fill what is empty,
empty what is full, and scratch where it itches"

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  #2  
Old December 9th 07, 07:48 AM posted to sci.space.shuttle
Brian Gaff
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Posts: 2,312
Default Commander's Decision?

I think its more a case of saying that here is a way to fly with an
intermittent fault nobody has any idea how to fix. The main part of the
proposal is that only a 1 min launch window will exist which uses less fuel
and thus a reduced risk of the eco system being needed occurs.

However, whatever they decide, someone is really going to have to look at
these sensors again. Mysteries like this need to be solved. They appear to
have thought it had been fixed, but either there is more than one problem,
or the one they found was a red herring.. I'm sure there is a joke about
tanks and herrings there somewhere...

As to whether you can interpret it as a no way jose from the crew, well,
there is a very politically sensitive payload as well, to consider, and it
would not be very helpful if they lost that, now would it?

In reality, as far as I can see, the risk of launching without the system is
very small, but Murphy's law is very well known in engineering and if an
engine fault was to occur, you can bet it would be in a flight where a
sensor faled.

Brian



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"Jim in Houston" wrote in message
...
News reports state that the "Crew Office" made the proposal that if
all four ECO's were not working properly they would not fly. Is this a
case of the CDR putting his foot down, so to speak, and saying I, or
we, don't want to, or will not fly, if the system is not working 100%?
If so, has this ever happened before?
Thanks,
Jim in Houston.

Contrary to popular opinion RN does not mean Real Nerd!
Teddy Roosevelt's mother said: "Fill what is empty,
empty what is full, and scratch where it itches"

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from
http://www.teranews.com



  #3  
Old December 9th 07, 03:19 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle
[email protected]
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Posts: 587
Default Commander's Decision?

On Dec 9, 12:24 am, Jim in Houston
wrote:
News reports state that the "Crew Office" made the proposal that if
all four ECO's were not working properly they would not fly. Is this a
case of the CDR putting his foot down, so to speak, and saying I, or
we, don't want to, or will not fly, if the system is not working 100%?
If so, has this ever happened before?
Thanks,
Jim in Houston.

Contrary to popular opinion RN does not mean Real Nerd!
Teddy Roosevelt's mother said: "Fill what is empty,
empty what is full, and scratch where it itches"

--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com


Crew office is not the CDR. There is a whole management structure in
charge of the astronauts. CDR doesn't have that kind of pull. Nor
does he have the knowledge to make those decisions

  #4  
Old December 9th 07, 09:15 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,516
Default Commander's Decision?

the reality is another accident means the end of the program, and all
jobs go POOF GONE.

  #5  
Old December 9th 07, 10:00 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle
Jim in Houston[_2_]
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Posts: 163
Default Commander's Decision?

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 06:19:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 9, 12:24 am, Jim in Houston
wrote:


Crew office is not the CDR. There is a whole management structure in
charge of the astronauts. CDR doesn't have that kind of pull. Nor
does he have the knowledge to make those decisions

I understand that the CDR is not the crew office, but the crew office
represents the CDR and the rest of the crew.
Also, I am surprised that the CDR doesn't have that "pull". I would
think that if the CDR is concerned about an item that he could say "no
go". I know he is part of the poll before launch, probably just a
courtesy. But with a problem like these ECO sensors which are marginal
at best, the CDR or flight crew might feel strongly enough about it to
go to their boss, in this case the crew office, and say I'm not
comfortable with this and I'm not gonna fly 'till I'm confident that
the engineers have a good understanding of the problem, and that they
are confident they have a good plan of action.
And I may be wrong, but I willing to bet that, at least, the CDR and
PLT have a pretty good working knowledge of the systems involved. I
know that they cant field strip and put an SSME back together, but I
know they know the implications of running the fuel tank dry with
malfunctioning ECO sensors and SSME's at 109%.
Regards,
Jim in Houston.

Contrary to popular opinion RN does not mean Real Nerd!
Teddy Roosevelt's mother said: "Fill what is empty,
empty what is full, and scratch where it itches"

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from
http://www.teranews.com

  #6  
Old December 9th 07, 11:14 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle
[email protected]
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Posts: 103
Default Commander's Decision?

From Jim in Houston:
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 06:19:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 9, 12:24 am, Jim in Houston
wrote:


Crew office is not the CDR. There is a whole management structure in
charge of the astronauts. CDR doesn't have that kind of pull. Nor
does he have the knowledge to make those decisions

I understand that the CDR is not the crew office, but the crew office
represents the CDR and the rest of the crew.
Also, I am surprised that the CDR doesn't have that "pull". I would
think that if the CDR is concerned about an item that he could say "no
go". I know he is part of the poll before launch, probably just a
courtesy. But with a problem like these ECO sensors which are marginal
at best, the CDR or flight crew might feel strongly enough about it to
go to their boss, in this case the crew office, and say I'm not
comfortable with this and I'm not gonna fly 'till I'm confident that
the engineers have a good understanding of the problem, and that they
are confident they have a good plan of action.
And I may be wrong, but I willing to bet that, at least, the CDR and
PLT have a pretty good working knowledge of the systems involved. I
know that they cant field strip and put an SSME back together, but I
know they know the implications of running the fuel tank dry with
malfunctioning ECO sensors and SSME's at 109%.


I quite doubt that NASA has a contingency plan to sedate and
straightjacket crewmembers into their seat against their will. So we
can conclude that all CDRs have the power to stop their mission from
launching.


If you walk past a bunch of icicles to ride the vader up to the
platform, walk the gantry and strap in, then YOU have taken
responsibility for your actions, regardless of whoever else may be
telling you that it's ok to launch.

If the mission previous to yours takes a massive foam strike that
dents and SRB skirt and you choose to strap in anyway, then you have
taken the known risk upon yourself.

And the personal accountability goes for every single crewmember as
well as the CDR.


~ CT
  #7  
Old December 9th 07, 11:38 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,516
Default Commander's Decision?

On Dec 9, 5:14�pm, wrote:
From Jim in Houston:





On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 06:19:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:


On Dec 9, 12:24 am, Jim in Houston
wrote:


Crew office is not the CDR. �There is a whole management structure in
charge of the astronauts. �CDR doesn't have that kind of pull. �Nor
does he have the knowledge to make those decisions

I understand that the CDR is not the crew office, but the crew office
represents the CDR and the rest of the crew.
Also, I am surprised that the CDR doesn't have that "pull". I would
think that if the CDR is concerned about an item that he could say "no
go". I know he is part of the poll before launch, probably just a
courtesy. But with a problem like these ECO sensors which are marginal
at best, the CDR or flight crew might feel strongly enough about it to
go to their boss, in this case the crew office, and say I'm not
comfortable with this and I'm not gonna fly 'till I'm confident that
the engineers have a good understanding of the problem, and that they
are confident they have a good plan of action.
And I may be wrong, but I willing to bet that, at least, the CDR and
PLT have a pretty good working knowledge of the systems involved. I
know that they cant field strip and put an SSME back together, but I
know they know the implications of running the fuel tank dry with
malfunctioning ECO sensors and SSME's at 109%.


I quite doubt that NASA has a contingency plan to sedate and
straightjacket crewmembers into their seat against their will. �So we
can conclude that all CDRs have the power to stop their mission from
launching.

If you walk past a bunch of icicles to ride the vader up to the
platform, walk the gantry and strap in, then YOU have taken
responsibility for your actions, regardless of whoever else may be
telling you that it's ok to launch.

If the mission previous to yours takes a massive foam strike that
dents and SRB skirt and you choose to strap in anyway, then you have
taken the known risk upon yourself.

And the personal accountability goes for every single crewmember as
well as the CDR.

~ CT- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


yeah but if one decides not to fly, for even real reasons their nasa
career would be over.

military people espically are trained to suck it up and do the
mission.

I kinda wonder how much familys concerns impacted this?

and yes the commander has the final veto power over any flight.
  #8  
Old December 9th 07, 11:40 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle
[email protected]
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Posts: 103
Default Commander's Decision?

I wrote:
From Jim in Houston:
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 06:19:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 9, 12:24 am, Jim in Houston
wrote:


Crew office is not the CDR. There is a whole management structure in
charge of the astronauts. CDR doesn't have that kind of pull. Nor
does he have the knowledge to make those decisions

I understand that the CDR is not the crew office, but the crew office
represents the CDR and the rest of the crew.
Also, I am surprised that the CDR doesn't have that "pull". I would
think that if the CDR is concerned about an item that he could say "no
go". I know he is part of the poll before launch, probably just a
courtesy. But with a problem like these ECO sensors which are marginal
at best, the CDR or flight crew might feel strongly enough about it to
go to their boss, in this case the crew office, and say I'm not
comfortable with this and I'm not gonna fly 'till I'm confident that
the engineers have a good understanding of the problem, and that they
are confident they have a good plan of action.
And I may be wrong, but I willing to bet that, at least, the CDR and
PLT have a pretty good working knowledge of the systems involved. I
know that they cant field strip and put an SSME back together, but I
know they know the implications of running the fuel tank dry with
malfunctioning ECO sensors and SSME's at 109%.


I quite doubt that NASA has a contingency plan to sedate and
straightjacket crewmembers into their seat against their will. So we
can conclude that all CDRs have the power to stop their mission from
launching.


If you walk past a bunch of icicles to ride the vader up to the
platform, walk the gantry and strap in, then YOU have taken
responsibility for your actions, regardless of whoever else may be
telling you that it's ok to launch.

If the mission previous to yours takes a massive foam strike that
dents and SRB skirt and you choose to strap in anyway, then you have
taken the known risk upon yourself.

And the personal accountability goes for every single crewmember as
well as the CDR.


Some corrections needed. Change to:

"If two missions previous to yours there is a massive foam strike that
dents an SRB skirt and you choose to strap in anyway..."

Suffice it to say that it is ridiculous to assert that any CDR does
not have the pull to scrub their own launch. And if any crewmember
would like to back out while avoiding the confrontation with anyone
pushing to GO, they can always take the Ferris Bueller way out!

Perhaps what 'behlingjo' meant to say was that a CDR doesn't have the
pull to do that without scrubbing their entire astronaut career along
with the mission.

THAT one I have yet to see anyone press-to-test!


~ CT
  #9  
Old December 9th 07, 11:41 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Commander's Decision?

I wrote:
From Jim in Houston:
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 06:19:01 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Dec 9, 12:24 am, Jim in Houston
wrote:


Crew office is not the CDR. There is a whole management structure in
charge of the astronauts. CDR doesn't have that kind of pull. Nor
does he have the knowledge to make those decisions

I understand that the CDR is not the crew office, but the crew office
represents the CDR and the rest of the crew.
Also, I am surprised that the CDR doesn't have that "pull". I would
think that if the CDR is concerned about an item that he could say "no
go". I know he is part of the poll before launch, probably just a
courtesy. But with a problem like these ECO sensors which are marginal
at best, the CDR or flight crew might feel strongly enough about it to
go to their boss, in this case the crew office, and say I'm not
comfortable with this and I'm not gonna fly 'till I'm confident that
the engineers have a good understanding of the problem, and that they
are confident they have a good plan of action.
And I may be wrong, but I willing to bet that, at least, the CDR and
PLT have a pretty good working knowledge of the systems involved. I
know that they cant field strip and put an SSME back together, but I
know they know the implications of running the fuel tank dry with
malfunctioning ECO sensors and SSME's at 109%.


I quite doubt that NASA has a contingency plan to sedate and
straightjacket crewmembers into their seat against their will. So we
can conclude that all CDRs have the power to stop their mission from
launching.


If you walk past a bunch of icicles to ride the vader up to the
platform, walk the gantry and strap in, then YOU have taken
responsibility for your actions, regardless of whoever else may be
telling you that it's ok to launch.

If the mission previous to yours takes a massive foam strike that
dents and SRB skirt and you choose to strap in anyway, then you have
taken the known risk upon yourself.

And the personal accountability goes for every single crewmember as
well as the CDR.


Some corrections needed. Change to:

"If two missions previous to yours there is a massive foam strike that
dents an SRB skirt and you choose to strap in anyway..."

Suffice it to say that it is ridiculous to assert that any CDR does
not have the pull to scrub their own launch. And if any crewmember
would like to back out while avoiding the confrontation with anyone
pushing to GO, they can always take the Ferris Bueller way out!

Perhaps what 'behlingjo' meant to say was that a CDR doesn't have the
pull to do that without scrubbing their entire astronaut career along
with the mission.

THAT one I have yet to see anyone press-to-test!


~ CT
  #10  
Old December 9th 07, 11:58 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Commander's Decision?

From Bob H:
On Dec 9, 5:14�pm, wrote:


I quite doubt that NASA has a contingency plan to sedate and
straightjacket crewmembers into their seat against their will. �So we
can conclude that all CDRs have the power to stop their mission from
launching.

If you walk past a bunch of icicles to ride the vader up to the
platform, walk the gantry and strap in, then YOU have taken
responsibility for your actions, regardless of whoever else may be
telling you that it's ok to launch.

If the mission previous to yours takes a massive foam strike that
dents and SRB skirt and you choose to strap in anyway, then you have
taken the known risk upon yourself.

And the personal accountability goes for every single crewmember as
well as the CDR.


yeah but if one decides not to fly, for even real reasons their nasa
career would be over.

military people espically are trained to suck it up and do the
mission.


I would like to think that a CDR who called a King's-X to scrub a
launch would be respected instead of cast aside.

But yes, it is definitely a bold call. And as stated before, the less
confrontational (albeit more cowardly) route would be to use the
Flight Surgeon as your way out.

What you are saying by calling No-Go is that you do not trust the
decision of the rest of your team. And if you don't have that trust,
then there are bigger problems. The bonus is that you have greatly
increased your chances of being alive when the dust settles.


~ CT
 




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