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The perpetual calendar
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
"Skitt" writes: Peter T. Daniels wrote: "Skitt" wrote: It made our helpers happy, and no believers were harmed in the process. Why, I even joined the YMCA, as it was our official sponsor. The YMCA had great pool tables and a table tennis facility, so all was not lost. I don't think you have to be Christian (or Young) to use the YMCA ... Not to use, but there was some sort of commitment that had to be expressed to join the Y. If so, they changed their policy by the time I started taking swimming lessons there in the '60s. My family were members, but we wouldn't have made any statement that expressed an affiliation with Christianity. I was referring to the 1949-1953 period. Things may have changed since then. Their Web site still mentions: Our Mission: To put Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit, mind and body for all. [snip] I was also a Ragger (of the blue sort). http://www.phantomlakeymca.com/raggers.html Again, that was top please our sponsor. Besides, when we first came to the USA, we lived in the Upper Lodge of the YMCA Camp near Boulder Creek. Our family was part of the staff there. -- Skitt (AmE) |
#12
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The perpetual calendar
On Feb 28, 11:49*am, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
"Skitt" writes: Peter T. Daniels wrote: "Skitt" wrote: It made our helpers happy, and no believers were harmed in the process. Why, I even joined the YMCA, as it was our official sponsor. The YMCA had great pool tables and a table tennis facility, so all was not lost. I don't think you have to be Christian (or Young) to use the YMCA ... Not to use, but there was some sort of commitment that had to be expressed to join the Y. If so, they changed their policy by the time I started taking swimming lessons there in the '60s. *My family were members, but we wouldn't have made any statement that expressed an affiliation with Christianity. Or perhaps it varied by Y. you certainly don't have to be Jewish (or male) to use the YMHA; the 92nd St. Y is one of New York City's great cultural institutions. *(They don't seem to use the MHA in their name any more.) Their web pages still say * * 2010 92nd Street Young Men's and Young Women's Hebrew Association but I suspect that the "Hebrew" euphemism (from latter half of the nineteenth century) is considered just too archaic. *Outside of New York, most became "Jewish Community Centers" (JCCs or J's) in, I believe, the '20s. I didn't know whether it started out as a YMHA or a YWHA, and I had to dig down into the "history" page to find anything but "Y" used as its name. |
#13
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The perpetual calendar
On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:00:48 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
wrote: On Feb 27, 2:39*am, Hatunen wrote: On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:20:00 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" wrote: The discussion was about whether there are Christians who don't use the Nicene creed. Although an atheist myself, I sometimes find myself in situations when the concept of "Christian" may need clarifying, especially since I also belong to *Unitarian-Uniersalist church. To me, one is only a Christian if one believes that there was a Jesus Christ who was the son of God and who died to redeem the sins of [fill in the blank: everyone; the chosen; the confessed, etc.]. None of this "I believe Jesus had good ideas stuff". I'm sure there are, and gave examples of Christians who may believe in the Nicene dogma but not use the creed (e.g. most Quakers--Mike Lyle pointed out that not all Quakers are Christians) and also of Christians who don't believe in the dogma of the Nicene creed at all (a long list, still available upthread). At that point you claimed they are "by definition, not Christians". Sigh. The essence of Christian dogma is encapsulated in the Nicene Creed. But you don't have to say it explicitly to be a Christian. You have to accept it. You have to acccept its principles. you probably have to affirm it at Confirmation (if you were baptized as an infant) or at Baptism (if baptized as an adult). "Probably" being the significant word. I wonder whether sjedvnull would be satisfied with, If you're baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then you're a Christian. There are those who claim so. -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#14
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The perpetual calendar
On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:39:12 -0500, tony cooper
wrote: A denomination might be Christian only if it subscribes to "there was a Jesus Christ who was the son of God...", but "one" - the individuals who are of that denomination - are not non-Christians because they don't accept this particular bit as truth. One needn't accept the whole package to be part of a denomination. That seems to be the point at issue here, and the discussion verges on being scholastic. -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#15
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The perpetual calendar
Hatunen wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote: I wonder whether sjedvnull would be satisfied with, If you're baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then you're a Christian. There are those who claim so. Just to provide some data -- I was so baptized (at the age of 16), but it didn't make me a Christian, at least, not in my beliefs. I mean, even if I do or say certain things, maybe my fingers are crossed behind my back. g -- Skitt (Follower of the FOTIPU) "The Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them." -- Steve Eley |
#16
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The perpetual calendar
On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 06:57:41 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
wrote: There's no such thing as "a Catechism." When I was little, the few Catholics I knew had to memorize something called "the Baltimore Catechism," which had no parallel whatsoever in either my Presbyterian church or my Episcopal school. The term may not have been explicitly used, but see http://www.pcusa.org/catech/studycat.htm and http://anglicansonline.org/basics/catechism.html The Baltimore Catechism, however, was rendered obsolete by Vatican II. I don't know what "a Catechism" would be, fifty years later. Hm. See http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm Google reveals many, many more pointers to - catholic catechism - -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#17
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The perpetual calendar
Skitt wrote:
Hatunen wrote: "Peter T. Daniels" wrote: I wonder whether sjedvnull would be satisfied with, If you're baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then you're a Christian. There are those who claim so. Just to provide some data -- I was so baptized (at the age of 16), but it didn't make me a Christian, at least, not in my beliefs. I mean, even if I do or say certain things, maybe my fingers are crossed behind my back. g At my confirmation my fingers definitely were crossed. In addition, I was muttering under my breath "a promise made under duress is not legally binding". Nobody asked me whether I wanted to be baptised or confirmed, and in any case I was too young to make an informed decision. Especially in the case of the baptism. -- Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. |
#18
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The perpetual calendar
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:12:37 -0800, "Skitt"
wrote: Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: "Skitt" writes: Peter T. Daniels wrote: Not to use, but there was some sort of commitment that had to be expressed to join the Y. If so, they changed their policy by the time I started taking swimming lessons there in the '60s. My family were members, but we wouldn't have made any statement that expressed an affiliation with Christianity. I was referring to the 1949-1953 period. Things may have changed since then. Their Web site still mentions: Our Mission: To put Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit, mind and body for all. That can be done without requiring a commitment to the recipient of the use of those principles. Even atheists can fit into that. -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#19
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The perpetual calendar
Peter Moylan gro.nalyomp@retep writes:
Skitt wrote: Hatunen wrote: "Peter T. Daniels" wrote: I wonder whether sjedvnull would be satisfied with, If you're baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then you're a Christian. There are those who claim so. Just to provide some data -- I was so baptized (at the age of 16), but it didn't make me a Christian, at least, not in my beliefs. I mean, even if I do or say certain things, maybe my fingers are crossed behind my back. g At my confirmation my fingers definitely were crossed. In addition, I was muttering under my breath "a promise made under duress is not legally binding". Nobody asked me whether I wanted to be baptised or confirmed, and in any case I was too young to make an informed decision. Especially in the case of the baptism. Seems a bit pointless to me. You might as well go through it wholeheartedly. After all, if it's rubbish then it's harmless - and if it's not you probably wanted to do it. -- Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk |
#20
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The perpetual calendar
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:15:20 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
wrote: On Feb 28, 2:57*am, " wrote: On Feb 27, 3:48*pm, "Peter T. Daniels" wrote: On Feb 27, 1:40*pm, " wrote: On Feb 27, 9:57*am, "Peter T. Daniels" wrote: On Feb 27, 2:29*am, " wrote: On Feb 27, 12:20*am, "Peter T. Daniels" wrote: On Feb 26, 9:04*pm, " wrote: At that point you claimed they are "by definition, not Christians". Sigh. The essence of Christian dogma is encapsulated in the Nicene Creed. That is a different statement than the original, and would appear to It may be a different "statement," but it conveys the obvious intent of the original statement. No, it conveys a different intent, which is obvious if you reread your original question: "Doesn't _every_ extant Christian church use the Nicene Creed? (With or without the _filioque_.)" *That's clearly Since it's my question, I think I am entitled to state what its intent was. Whatever you might have meant, your words didn't convey it. *With an ambiguous statement, it's certainly reasonable to admit that you were wrong and revise your statement--I've certainly made ill-formed statements in this thread and others, and altered them. In this case, though, it's pretty obvious from the wording what you meant by the original question, and if you're now asserting that you didn't mean to ask whether all Christians actually use some real wording of the Nicene Creed then I absolutely believe you're lying. *I have no further interest in continuing this thread if you're going to insist otherwise (and several other people in this thread also took your words to mean what they meant to me, so I don't feel that's an idiosyncrasy of mine). See recent posting on mathematicians' restrictive interpretation of unexpressed quantifiers in English. (I gather, from the sources you cite, that you are some sort of conservative Catholic, the type that in Chicago flocked to the one parish in the city that had dispensation *from Rome to say Mass in Latin, so I wouldn't be surprised if you don't know anything about such questions.) Have fun with that (Fwiw, I'm a liberal atheist).- Then why on earth are you not familiar with recent (i.e., less than a century and a half old) scholarship on topics on which you pontificate? Do you mean he's acting like the Pontiff or that he's bui -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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