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puzzle; Benzene
On Jun 6, 2:37*pm, john wrote:
On Jun 6, 9:25*am, Robert Higgins wrote: On Jun 6, 11:12*am, john wrote: On Jun 6, 8:58*am, Robert Higgins wrote: On Jun 6, 10:44*am, john wrote: On Jun 6, 8:18*am, PD wrote: On Jun 6, 12:00*am, franklinhu wrote: On Jun 3, 6:34*am, john wrote: On Jun 2, 10:50*am, (Michael Moroney) wrote: ...and your evidence that all those spinny coins have anything whatsoever to do with a real benzene molecule is what? They are classical pathways put together in the form of a six-member ring which is planar and has six others each sharing with one member of the ring and also in the same plane and has the capacity to contain 30 electrons. What do you want? Show me a better explanation of how it works. Try this on for size.... See this web page:http://franklinhu.com/atmdetail2.html You might want to do a Google Images search for "benzene STM" and update your references. At the bottom you will see an actual STM picture of benzene. Now what is strange here is that we see 3 little lumps poking up in this picture, not 6 lumps arrayed in a planar arrangement as is commonly shown and appears to be assumed by your model. Any reasonable model of benzene should be able to explain this. http://franklinhu.com/benzenestm.jpg My own cubic atomic model explains this as the 3 hydrogen atoms sticking up above the carbon ring plane and the remaining 3 hydrogen atoms point downward below the carbon plane. Note that this particular arrangment is still perfectly symmettric with regards to the resonance data used to establish the location of the hydrogen atoms. All the resonance data tells us is that each of the hydrogens have the same resonance. This could mean planar, but it could also mean 3 up and 3 down - as long as it is symettric about the carbon ring, the resonances will all come out the same. I have shown this in the picture of benzene in my cubic atomic model as: http://franklinhu.com/benzene.jpg The shape of the carbon atom allows three of it's "arms" to link together to form a ring with one of its arms pointed inward forming a double bond. Notice that only the red/black cubes are touching eachother to form an attractive bond. The remaining carbon arm is then used to hold the hydrogen atom. The requirement of only red/black cubes touching forces it to have 3 up hydrogens and 3 down hydrogens. This model easily and intuitively explains why this forms a "double" bond and why we see the 3 bumps in the STM picture of benzene.. Can your model match that result? To see a full explanation of this cubic atomic model which I think does a much better job of explaining the structure of benzene, see: http://franklinhu.com/buildatm.htm -fhubenzene- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The three bumps thing is helpful. http://users.accesscomm.ca/john/BenzeneA.GIF provides classical orbitals to accommodate 30 electrons in a ring-with-6-hydrogens scenario. The problem is in feeding the electrons into it in the right order.Opposite hydrogens exchange simultaneously with this pattern, so does one give and the other get wrt their hydrogens? Or do both give? Both get? You see the problem. But three bumps seems to say that adjacent and opposite hydrogens are opposite. I'll plug that in to my Benzene Sudoku and see if it runs:http://users.accesscomm.ca/john/Benzene%2520Sudoku.xls thanks franklin You do realize that the structure of benzene has been known since 1865. High resolution crystal structures of benzene have long been available. The molecular orbitals of benzene have been know since the the 1930's.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ah. Enlighten me. Explain them. This is basic organic chemistry, and much of it is even covered in the first year (college) course. When you've learned enough to ask a reasonable question, I'll answer it. Until then, try to catch up to 1865, at least.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - When you are able to map the pathways of the 30 individual electrons of Benzene according to your 'model', using AutoCad, or somesuch, please feel free to squawk. Actually, electrons in atoms don't have pathways per se, since Newtonian trajectories are inconsistent with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. So drawing pathways, with Autocad or Maya or a #2 Ticonderoga pencil, is not a representation of reality, John. |
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