Define Nothing

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 04:32:33 GMT, "Painius"
wrote:
Now we are beginning to get some whe-))
Some one actually understands the problem.

"Bill Nunnelee" wrote in message...
thlink.net...

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:05:15 GMT, pinkling
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:20:57 GMT in
, Roger Halstead
graced the world with this thought:

The dictionary defines it, but in reality we don't even have a concept
of nothing unless some one can come up with a definition I've not
seen

So the definition in the dictionary wasn't good enough, or what?

Nope it isn't.

Basically they define it as what it is not, not what it is and my old
college prof would never have let me get away with something like
that..

Nothing def: "Something that does not exist." They are defining it
in terms of itself. "Something" that does not exist. What doesn't
exist?..."Something".

We really don't have a concept for nothing as we always have to use an
incomplete definition by defining it as "something", or in terms of
itself.

The closest I've seen is Nothing "The absolute absence of everything".
Again, it's defined in terms of what it is not.

I'm looking for a real definition, or at least a better one.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Nonsense. Many opposites are defined that way. Cold is the absence of

Not nonsense at all...it goes far beyond that.
Cold is the absence of heat is really an analogy and is a relative
term. Cold or rather temperature can be measured.
Temperature is defined by molecular motion.
All these things can be quantified and measured.

heat, dark is the absence of light, silence is the absence of sound, nothing

Again, sound can be quantified and measured as can light.

is the absence of anything. As long as one term can be well defined, its
opposite will be equally well defined.

Only in absolutes and then only in special cases and in general it
leads to circular reasoning. hen there can be nothing in between good
and evil. Only one or the other according to my old philosophy prof.


Bill, i think Roger is looking for more than this. For example,
try using your above method to describe dark and light, black
and white, or even gray to, say, a person who's been blind
since birth.

"Something" and "nothing" would be easy to define in this
respect?

Roger, the idea of "nothing" is truly a difficult concept to
grasp.

Every thing we define is based on what came before. Yet the only way
we can define nothing is basically in terms of itself.

ook how long it took for the world of mathematics
to finally get a zero! And even having a zero can be, well,
a bit unsettling. A case in point would be the answer to...

It was really unsettling when the concept of zero was invented. :-))


"When did the new millennium begin? on January 1, 2000?
or did it start on January 1, 2001? Most people celebrated
it on the former, and most of your science-types partied on
the latter date (the *real* party hounds wasted themselves
on *both* dates g)

No sense wasting a good party:-))


"Nothing" is ultimately a term used to define "something."
There really isn't any such thing as "nothing." Even if you
were to whisk yourself out into intergalactic space, you
could never get so far away from galaxies that you would
not be able to see "something."

But...If space is expanding, then into what is it expanding. That
would be nothing. Nothing is even the absence of space, yet who can
visualize the absence of space without going beyond 4 dimensions..


Space itself cannot be "nothing"... scientists believe that
space is expanding, that it's been expanding for billions of
years since the Big Bang. Can "nothing" expand? If space
can expand, then space must be "something," right?

Twould seem that way.


Now i suppose that from time to time we can become very
acutely aware of some level of "nothing," eg, when we get
those nasty postcards from the bank charging us more of
what we don't have because our checking account is down
to "nothing."

Unfortunately money can also be quantified and measured. Sorta like
the coolant in the radiator. When it gets too low you know there's
gonna be a problem.


And yet there is really only one way to get a true feel for the
definition of "nothing"... that's when, heavens forbid, you
should ever find yourself lying beneath an interstate
overpass with an empty wine bottle next to you... and
somebody's stolen your shoes. Then you might start to
get an inkling, a clue, about what "nothing" really is.

Despair? It's certainly an emotional concept of nothing and probably
the best analogy I've heard so far.


How's that Kristofferson song go? "Freedom's just
another word for *nothing* left to lose..."

And a philosopher to boot:-))

Now, we are beginning to get a handle on the problem.
Sorta like asymtopes...They approach a limit, getting ever closer, but
never quite making it.

Thanks,

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:20:57 +0100, Roger Halstead wrote:

Can any one define "nothing"?

The dictionary defines it, but in reality we don't even have a concept
of nothing unless some one can come up with a definition I've not seen.


Nothing can be positively defined as "An entity whose all characteristics
are exactly zero".

--

Gautam Majumdar

Please send e-mails to

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:20:57 +0100, Roger Halstead wrote:

Can any one define "nothing"?

The dictionary defines it, but in reality we don't even have a concept
of nothing unless some one can come up with a definition I've not seen.


Nothing can be positively defined as "An entity whose all characteristics
are exactly zero".

--

Gautam Majumdar

Please send e-mails to

An old friend and mentor wise beyond his years used to address this
question in terms of 'being vs. not-being'. He used the example of a
fish in the deep ocean (a very smart fish BTW) who kept hearing about
this "ocean" that supposedly has enormous pressure and is the domain in
which he lives and moves and has his being. Yet he has no sensory
perception of it at all, so his sense-based logic has to conclude that
the mythical ocean is 'not-being', a void, and 'nothing'.
Similarly, we have the 'void' of space which we deem
'nothingness' based on our sensory input and the resolution of our
instruments. But is space truly "nothing"? Heh. That's a whole 'nother
ball game. oc

An old friend and mentor wise beyond his years used to address this
question in terms of 'being vs. not-being'. He used the example of a
fish in the deep ocean (a very smart fish BTW) who kept hearing about
this "ocean" that supposedly has enormous pressure and is the domain in
which he lives and moves and has his being. Yet he has no sensory
perception of it at all, so his sense-based logic has to conclude that
the mythical ocean is 'not-being', a void, and 'nothing'.
Similarly, we have the 'void' of space which we deem
'nothingness' based on our sensory input and the resolution of our
instruments. But is space truly "nothing"? Heh. That's a whole 'nother
ball game. oc

"not a thing" ... :-)


"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
Can any one define "nothing"?

The dictionary defines it, but in reality we don't even have a concept
of nothing unless some one can come up with a definition I've not
seen.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

"not a thing" ... :-)


"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
Can any one define "nothing"?

The dictionary defines it, but in reality we don't even have a concept
of nothing unless some one can come up with a definition I've not
seen.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 04:32:33 GMT, "Painius"
Temperature is defined by molecular motion.

All these things can be quantified and measured.

NOTHING can be quantified as ZERO, ZILCH, 0 etc :-)





heat, dark is the absence of light, silence is the absence of sound,
nothing

Again, sound can be quantified and measured as can light.

is the absence of anything. As long as one term can be well defined,
its
opposite will be equally well defined.

Only in absolutes and then only in special cases and in general it
leads to circular reasoning. hen there can be nothing in between good
and evil. Only one or the other according to my old philosophy prof.


Bill, i think Roger is looking for more than this. For example,
try using your above method to describe dark and light, black
and white, or even gray to, say, a person who's been blind
since birth.

"Something" and "nothing" would be easy to define in this
respect?

Roger, the idea of "nothing" is truly a difficult concept to
grasp.

Every thing we define is based on what came before. Yet the only way
we can define nothing is basically in terms of itself.

ook how long it took for the world of mathematics
to finally get a zero! And even having a zero can be, well,
a bit unsettling. A case in point would be the answer to...

It was really unsettling when the concept of zero was invented. :-))


"When did the new millennium begin? on January 1, 2000?
or did it start on January 1, 2001? Most people celebrated
it on the former, and most of your science-types partied on
the latter date (the *real* party hounds wasted themselves
on *both* dates g)

No sense wasting a good party:-))


"Nothing" is ultimately a term used to define "something."
There really isn't any such thing as "nothing." Even if you
were to whisk yourself out into intergalactic space, you
could never get so far away from galaxies that you would
not be able to see "something."

But...If space is expanding, then into what is it expanding. That
would be nothing. Nothing is even the absence of space, yet who can
visualize the absence of space without going beyond 4 dimensions..


Space itself cannot be "nothing"... scientists believe that
space is expanding, that it's been expanding for billions of
years since the Big Bang. Can "nothing" expand? If space
can expand, then space must be "something," right?

Twould seem that way.


Now i suppose that from time to time we can become very
acutely aware of some level of "nothing," eg, when we get
those nasty postcards from the bank charging us more of
what we don't have because our checking account is down
to "nothing."

Unfortunately money can also be quantified and measured. Sorta like
the coolant in the radiator. When it gets too low you know there's
gonna be a problem.


And yet there is really only one way to get a true feel for the
definition of "nothing"... that's when, heavens forbid, you
should ever find yourself lying beneath an interstate
overpass with an empty wine bottle next to you... and
somebody's stolen your shoes. Then you might start to
get an inkling, a clue, about what "nothing" really is.

Despair? It's certainly an emotional concept of nothing and probably
the best analogy I've heard so far.


How's that Kristofferson song go? "Freedom's just
another word for *nothing* left to lose..."

And a philosopher to boot:-))

Now, we are beginning to get a handle on the problem.
Sorta like asymtopes...They approach a limit, getting ever closer, but
never quite making it.

Thanks,

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 04:32:33 GMT, "Painius"
Temperature is defined by molecular motion.

All these things can be quantified and measured.

NOTHING can be quantified as ZERO, ZILCH, 0 etc :-)





heat, dark is the absence of light, silence is the absence of sound,
nothing

Again, sound can be quantified and measured as can light.

is the absence of anything. As long as one term can be well defined,
its
opposite will be equally well defined.

Only in absolutes and then only in special cases and in general it
leads to circular reasoning. hen there can be nothing in between good
and evil. Only one or the other according to my old philosophy prof.


Bill, i think Roger is looking for more than this. For example,
try using your above method to describe dark and light, black
and white, or even gray to, say, a person who's been blind
since birth.

"Something" and "nothing" would be easy to define in this
respect?

Roger, the idea of "nothing" is truly a difficult concept to
grasp.

Every thing we define is based on what came before. Yet the only way
we can define nothing is basically in terms of itself.

ook how long it took for the world of mathematics
to finally get a zero! And even having a zero can be, well,
a bit unsettling. A case in point would be the answer to...

It was really unsettling when the concept of zero was invented. :-))


"When did the new millennium begin? on January 1, 2000?
or did it start on January 1, 2001? Most people celebrated
it on the former, and most of your science-types partied on
the latter date (the *real* party hounds wasted themselves
on *both* dates g)

No sense wasting a good party:-))


"Nothing" is ultimately a term used to define "something."
There really isn't any such thing as "nothing." Even if you
were to whisk yourself out into intergalactic space, you
could never get so far away from galaxies that you would
not be able to see "something."

But...If space is expanding, then into what is it expanding. That
would be nothing. Nothing is even the absence of space, yet who can
visualize the absence of space without going beyond 4 dimensions..


Space itself cannot be "nothing"... scientists believe that
space is expanding, that it's been expanding for billions of
years since the Big Bang. Can "nothing" expand? If space
can expand, then space must be "something," right?

Twould seem that way.


Now i suppose that from time to time we can become very
acutely aware of some level of "nothing," eg, when we get
those nasty postcards from the bank charging us more of
what we don't have because our checking account is down
to "nothing."

Unfortunately money can also be quantified and measured. Sorta like
the coolant in the radiator. When it gets too low you know there's
gonna be a problem.


And yet there is really only one way to get a true feel for the
definition of "nothing"... that's when, heavens forbid, you
should ever find yourself lying beneath an interstate
overpass with an empty wine bottle next to you... and
somebody's stolen your shoes. Then you might start to
get an inkling, a clue, about what "nothing" really is.

Despair? It's certainly an emotional concept of nothing and probably
the best analogy I've heard so far.


How's that Kristofferson song go? "Freedom's just
another word for *nothing* left to lose..."

And a philosopher to boot:-))

Now, we are beginning to get a handle on the problem.
Sorta like asymtopes...They approach a limit, getting ever closer, but
never quite making it.

Thanks,

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

Well, you asked better questions than the original poster. :-)

His main point seemed to be that it was a bad idea to define something in
terms of what it isn't. I just invented the word farklegak, which means
everything in the universe but my favorite blue shirt. Now, if you have to
write the dictionary definition, do you mention my shirt or do you start
listing everything else in the universe? As long as the complementary
definitions aren't circular (A defined as not B, and B defined as not A), it
should be fine.

Will any definition meet everyone's needs? Probably not. We're dealing
with language here, not mathematics. A man from Borneo who's never seen
anyone wear a shirt will have trouble grasping the meaning of farklegak,
just as your blind man will have difficulty with light/dark and colors. But
that doesn't make the definitions any less apt. Those people will just have
to dig a bit deeper. (Haven't you ever read a definition in the dictionary
that sent you looking up other words?)

So what is nothing? The others have presented some good answers. Is space
nothing? Nope, virtual particles are popping into and out of existance
everywhere all the time (quantum foam). What is expanding? The distance
between things...the imaginary grid we set up to measure the locations of
things.

Clear skies,
Bill



Bill, i think Roger is looking for more than this. For example,
try using your above method to describe dark and light, black
and white, or even gray to, say, a person who's been blind
since birth.

"Something" and "nothing" would be easy to define in this
respect?

Roger, the idea of "nothing" is truly a difficult concept to
grasp. Look how long it took for the world of mathematics
to finally get a zero! And even having a zero can be, well,
a bit unsettling. A case in point would be the answer to...

"When did the new millennium begin? on January 1, 2000?
or did it start on January 1, 2001? Most people celebrated
it on the former, and most of your science-types partied on
the latter date (the *real* party hounds wasted themselves
on *both* dates g)

"Nothing" is ultimately a term used to define "something."
There really isn't any such thing as "nothing." Even if you
were to whisk yourself out into intergalactic space, you
could never get so far away from galaxies that you would
not be able to see "something."

Space itself cannot be "nothing"... scientists believe that
space is expanding, that it's been expanding for billions of
years since the Big Bang. Can "nothing" expand? If space
can expand, then space must be "something," right?

Now i suppose that from time to time we can become very
acutely aware of some level of "nothing," eg, when we get
those nasty postcards from the bank charging us more of
what we don't have because our checking account is down
to "nothing."

And yet there is really only one way to get a true feel for the
definition of "nothing"... that's when, heavens forbid, you
should ever find yourself lying beneath an interstate
overpass with an empty wine bottle next to you... and
somebody's stolen your shoes. Then you might start to
get an inkling, a clue, about what "nothing" really is.

How's that Kristofferson song go? "Freedom's just
another word for *nothing* left to lose..."

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
if you have love,
you really have something,
if you give love,
you'll never have nothing.

Paine Ellsworth