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US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talkswith SpaceX



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 26th 18, 07:25 PM posted to sci.space.policy
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Posts: 629
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talkswith SpaceX

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/
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  #2  
Old October 27th 18, 12:51 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 1,786
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talks with SpaceX

In article ,
says...

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/

From above:

One potential would be SpaceX?s next-generation reusable
BFR rocket, currently under development. During the
roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had
spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

Interesting. Sounds like they're considering BFR as a military P2P
cargo transport. It would certainly be faster than any other form of
transport over great distances.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #3  
Old October 27th 18, 05:59 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Greg \(Strider\) Moore
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Posts: 631
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talks with SpaceX

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of
Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of
moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help
with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to
Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/


From above:

One potential would be SpaceX?s next-generation reusable
BFR rocket, currently under development. During the
roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had
spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

Interesting. Sounds like they're considering BFR as a military P2P
cargo transport. It would certainly be faster than any other form of
transport over great distances.


True, but the real question will be what you need for a useful landing
platform and the ability to refuel.

A C-130 may not be fast, but can land at most airfields and its fuel is
available worldwide.

Where you need the speed of a BFR, I suspect you won't have the other
infrastructure in place.

But that said, I can start to see Heinlein type drop-ships.

Jeff


--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net
IT Disaster Response -
https://www.amazon.com/Disaster-Resp...dp/1484221834/

  #4  
Old October 27th 18, 06:08 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,497
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirmstalks with SpaceX

On 10/26/2018 7:51 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/

From above:

One potential would be SpaceX?s next-generation reusable
BFR rocket, currently under development. During the
roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had
spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

Interesting. Sounds like they're considering BFR as a military P2P
cargo transport. It would certainly be faster than any other form of
transport over great distances.

Jeff


Jeff,

Are we back-peddling a bit on the feasibility of P2P or just commercial
P2P? ;-)

Dave

  #5  
Old October 27th 18, 07:00 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,786
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talks with SpaceX

In article , says...

On 10/26/2018 7:51 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/

From above:

One potential would be SpaceX?s next-generation reusable
BFR rocket, currently under development. During the
roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had
spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

Interesting. Sounds like they're considering BFR as a military P2P
cargo transport. It would certainly be faster than any other form of
transport over great distances.

Jeff


Jeff,

Are we back-peddling a bit on the feasibility of P2P or just commercial
P2P? ;-)


I've said this in other posts:

|That's the one part of BFR/BFS I don't take seriously. As a first
|generation VTVL TSTO it's not likely to be safe enough for routine
|passenger transport. Maybe the second or third generation will be.

The current discussion with the US military is over using BFR/BFS for
space based *cargo* transport.

I also said:

| I assert that BFR/BFS would be little different than the V-22
| in terms of both unique capabilities and could be little
| different when it comes to its reliability as an air/space
| transport craft.

Note that we don't see V-22s or a commercial derivative of the same
technology being used in commercial passenger carrying transport quite
yet. The V-22 has tended to crash more often than FAA certified
commercial passenger carrying transports.

And that's not for a lack of trying:

AgustaWestland AW609
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_AW609

As far as I can tell, the AW609 is not yet certified.

ERIC ADAMS, TRANSPORTATION, 02.07.1809:00 AM
GET RICH SO YOU CAN FLY IN A V-22 OSPREY-INSPIRED PRIVATE PLANE
https://www.wired.com/story/leonardo-aw609-tilt-rotor/

From above:

Whether or not the AW609 can establish itself in the aviation
market, Leonardo expects it will enter commercial service in
earnest in 2019, after certification.

I wish them luck. It's a cool aircraft.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #6  
Old October 27th 18, 07:15 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,844
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talks with SpaceX

"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" wrote on Sat,
27 Oct 2018 12:59:24 -0400:

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of
Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of
moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help
with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to
Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/


From above:

One potential would be SpaceX?s next-generation reusable
BFR rocket, currently under development. During the
roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had
spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

Interesting. Sounds like they're considering BFR as a military P2P
cargo transport. It would certainly be faster than any other form of
transport over great distances.


True, but the real question will be what you need for a useful landing
platform and the ability to refuel.


Pretty much anyplace with a hard surface will do for landing.


A C-130 may not be fast, but can land at most airfields and its fuel is
available worldwide.


BFS burns LNG, which is at least as common as aviation grade kerosene.


Where you need the speed of a BFR, I suspect you won't have the other
infrastructure in place.


The real problem is that unless you have a fleet of the things you've
just put a relatively small number of troops way behind enemy lines
without support.


--
You have never lived until you have almost died.
Life has a special meaning that the protected
will never know.
  #7  
Old October 27th 18, 07:24 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,844
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talks with SpaceX

Jeff Findley wrote on Sat, 27 Oct 2018
14:00:57 -0400:

In article , says...

On 10/26/2018 7:51 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/

From above:

One potential would be SpaceX?s next-generation reusable
BFR rocket, currently under development. During the
roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had
spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

Interesting. Sounds like they're considering BFR as a military P2P
cargo transport. It would certainly be faster than any other form of
transport over great distances.

Jeff


Jeff,

Are we back-peddling a bit on the feasibility of P2P or just commercial
P2P? ;-)


I've said this in other posts:

|That's the one part of BFR/BFS I don't take seriously. As a first
|generation VTVL TSTO it's not likely to be safe enough for routine
|passenger transport. Maybe the second or third generation will be.

The current discussion with the US military is over using BFR/BFS for
space based *cargo* transport.


Who's on the receiving end and how did they get there?

I also said:

| I assert that BFR/BFS would be little different than the V-22
| in terms of both unique capabilities and could be little
| different when it comes to its reliability as an air/space
| transport craft.

Note that we don't see V-22s or a commercial derivative of the same
technology being used in commercial passenger carrying transport quite
yet. The V-22 has tended to crash more often than FAA certified
commercial passenger carrying transports.


Nobody is shooting at commercial passenger aircraft. V-22 is
apparently 'good enough' that the Army is considering V-280 as a
replacement for H-60.


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney
  #8  
Old October 27th 18, 10:51 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Alain Fournier[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 360
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirmstalks with SpaceX

Le oct./27/2018 √* 14:15, Fred J. McCall a √©crit¬*:
"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" wrote on Sat,
27 Oct 2018 12:59:24 -0400:

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of
Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of
moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help
with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to
Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/

From above:

One potential would be SpaceX?s next-generation reusable
BFR rocket, currently under development. During the
roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had
spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

Interesting. Sounds like they're considering BFR as a military P2P
cargo transport. It would certainly be faster than any other form of
transport over great distances.


True, but the real question will be what you need for a useful landing
platform and the ability to refuel.


Pretty much anyplace with a hard surface will do for landing.


A C-130 may not be fast, but can land at most airfields and its fuel is
available worldwide.


BFS burns LNG, which is at least as common as aviation grade kerosene.


BFS will burn liquid methane. I'm not sure what would happen if you
replaced the methane with LNG. Possibly it would fly, possibly it would
go kaboum. Even if LNG is mostly liquid methane, there typically is near
10% of ethane, propane, butane and small amounts of other stuff. In some
cases the difference can have consequences.


Alain Fournier
  #9  
Old October 28th 18, 02:53 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,844
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talks with SpaceX

Alain Fournier wrote on Sat, 27 Oct 2018
17:51:32 -0400:

Le oct./27/2018 ŗ 14:15, Fred J. McCall a ťcrit*:
"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" wrote on Sat,
27 Oct 2018 12:59:24 -0400:

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...

"As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of
Air
Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of
moving cargo
using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August."


"Apart from cargo operations, such a focuses space presence could help
with pre-
positioning equipment and supplies in orbit, ready to be dropped to
Earth."

See:

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...s-with-spacex/

From above:

One potential would be SpaceX?s next-generation reusable
BFR rocket, currently under development. During the
roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had
spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

Interesting. Sounds like they're considering BFR as a military P2P
cargo transport. It would certainly be faster than any other form of
transport over great distances.


True, but the real question will be what you need for a useful landing
platform and the ability to refuel.


Pretty much anyplace with a hard surface will do for landing.


A C-130 may not be fast, but can land at most airfields and its fuel is
available worldwide.


BFS burns LNG, which is at least as common as aviation grade kerosene.


BFS will burn liquid methane. I'm not sure what would happen if you
replaced the methane with LNG. Possibly it would fly, possibly it would
go kaboum. Even if LNG is mostly liquid methane, there typically is near
10% of ethane, propane, butane and small amounts of other stuff. In some
cases the difference can have consequences.


I suspect this is not one of those cases. At worst you might see
small differences in performance.


--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world."
-- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden
  #10  
Old October 28th 18, 01:38 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,786
Default US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talks with SpaceX

In article ,
says...
The current discussion with the US military is over using BFR/BFS for
space based *cargo* transport.


Who's on the receiving end and how did they get there?


The articles quoting people from DOD do not say anything about troops,
just cargo, so I wouldn't really know.

I also said:

| I assert that BFR/BFS would be little different than the V-22
| in terms of both unique capabilities and could be little
| different when it comes to its reliability as an air/space
| transport craft.

Note that we don't see V-22s or a commercial derivative of the same
technology being used in commercial passenger carrying transport quite
yet. The V-22 has tended to crash more often than FAA certified
commercial passenger carrying transports.


Nobody is shooting at commercial passenger aircraft. V-22 is
apparently 'good enough' that the Army is considering V-280 as a
replacement for H-60.


Which dovetails into one of my original assertions that I feel that a
first generation BFR/BFS might not be quite safe enough for routine P2P
passenger transport. To do so it would have to gain FAA certification
for such a role which may prove difficult. But, it might be considered
safe enough for "routine" military use (especially for cargo, which is
what has been reportedly been discussed by DOD and SpaceX).

This is precisely why I brought up the V-22 as an example. DOD doesn't
have to put any of its aircraft through FAA certification, so they can
use the V-22 "routinely" even though it is not FAA certified. Gaining
FAA certification for a commercial tilt-rotor aircraft has proven quite
difficult and lengthy, even though it's been more than a decade since
the V-22 was green lighted for series production (2005).

DOD was able to green light and adopt tilt-rotor aircraft technology
faster than the civilian transport industry partly due to the need to
gain FAA certification. I'm just suggesting that BFR/BFS for P2P
transport could face similar hurdles. Courting DOD for the P2P role of
BFR/BFS makes sense because they can avoid needing FAA approval for its
use as a P2P transport vehicle. Hell, if it's flying for DOD, they
don't even need FAA approval to launch the thing no matter what the
mission.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
 




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