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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?



 
 
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  #141  
Old September 24th 18, 05:23 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Posts: 331
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Paul Schlyter wrote in
:

On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:38:37 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Kujisalimisha wrote:
And here you are in conflict with what you said up above. What
a maroon.


Maroon?

QED.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

  #142  
Old September 24th 18, 05:24 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Posts: 331
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Gary Harnagel wrote in
:

On Saturday, September 22, 2018 at 3:44:12 AM UTC-6, Paul
Schlyter wrote: ?
On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:02:09 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote:

True agnosticism has nothing to do with atheism There are
agnostic atheists and there are agnostic theists. Agnosticism
has to do with the knowability of the question, it has
nothing to do with belief.


It has to do with the belief about the knowability. The
knowability itself either exists or does not exist,
independently of personal beliefs.


I believe that anything that exists is knowable (potentially).


Reality does not require your belief to be reality.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

  #143  
Old September 24th 18, 05:25 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Posts: 331
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Paul Schlyter wrote in
:

On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:35:32 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:44:04 +0200, Paul Schlyter
wrote:


On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:02:09 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
True agnosticism has nothing to do with atheism There are

agnostic
atheists and there are agnostic theists. Agnosticism has to
do

with
the knowability of the question, it has nothing to do with

belief.

It has to do with the belief about the knowability. The

knowability
itself either exists or does not exist, independently of
personal beliefs.


Nevertheless, agnosticism is unrelated to theism or atheism. It
measures something different. Everyone who is informed is
either an atheist or a theist, it's just a matter of how strong
their belief

is
either way.


Why is it mandatory to "choose side" here?

Imagine a bowl filled with fine grsined sand. How many grains of
sand are there in the bowl? Undoubtedly a very large number -
but is that large number an even number or an odd number? You
will never know - but what do you **believe**?

Do really everyone have to be an "evenist" or an "oddist"? If
not, why do everyone have to be a theist or an atheist? Why
exclude the alternative of refraining from choosing a belief
here?

And how do you classify those who simply don't care, but find
morons arguing to be entertaining?

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

  #144  
Old September 24th 18, 05:27 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 09:25:54 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
wrote:

And how do you classify those who simply don't care, but find
morons arguing to be entertaining?


Apathetic. And intellectually weak.
  #145  
Old September 24th 18, 06:11 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Posts: 331
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Chris L Peterson wrote in
:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 09:25:54 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Kujisalimisha wrote:

And how do you classify those who simply don't care, but find
morons arguing to be entertaining?


Apathetic. And intellectually weak.

Given that you're a Chris, and therefore, stupid, I'll take that as
an indication that you recognize that grown ups, unlike you, have
more important things to devote their lives to, and that you know
you're stupid and resent how much smarter most people are.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to getting help.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

  #146  
Old September 25th 18, 04:12 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

Gary Harnagel wrote in
:

I believe that anything that exists is knowable (potentially).


Reality does not require your belief to be reality.


“I reject your reality and substitute my own.” – Adam Savage

“I'd far rather be happy than right any day.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
  #147  
Old September 25th 18, 07:47 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Ninapenda Jibini
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Posts: 31
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Gary Harnagel wrote in
:

On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

Gary Harnagel wrote in
:

I believe that anything that exists is knowable
(potentially).


Reality does not require your belief to be reality.


“I reject your reality and substitute my own.” – Adam
Savage

“I'd far rather be happy than right any day.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Just don't whine when people point and laugh at you.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
  #148  
Old September 25th 18, 09:24 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Martin Brown[_3_]
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Posts: 189
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On 23/09/2018 11:22, Paul Schlyter wrote:
On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:35:32 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:44:04 +0200, Paul Schlyter
wrote:


On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:02:09 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
True agnosticism has nothing to do with atheism There are

agnostic
atheists and there are agnostic theists. Agnosticism has to do

with
the knowability of the question, it has nothing to do with

belief.

It has to do with the belief about the knowability. The

knowability
itself either exists or does not exist, independently of personal
beliefs.


Nevertheless, agnosticism is unrelated to theism or atheism. It
measures something different. Everyone who is informed is either an
atheist or a theist, it's just a matter of how strong their belief

is
either way.


Why is it mandatory to "choose side" here?


Because that is what the majority of people do when faced with a binary
yes or no question (and what polarises US political debate too).

The most uninformative prior probability distribution of belief in the
outcome of a binary decision with 0 meaning false and 1 meaning true (or
vice versa) can be derived by several different methods as:

P(x) = 1/(x(1-x))

First derived by Haldane it is one of a family of improper prior
probability distributions that reflect the absence of any data or even
knowing whether the question itself is capable of being answered.

I favour the derivation by Jaynes (1968) based on Lie groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_...rmative_priors

It is symmetric about x=1/2 (the lowest value it ever takes).

https://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/prior.pdf

One slightly hand waving physicists derivation is at pages 19-20 in the
following paper by Jaynes ( a much more rigorous proof from Lie groups
exists).

https://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/prior.pdf

It is worth bearing in mind that no-one was ever burned at the stake for
a belief in God x=1/2. It was true believers in "*the* one true God"
being burnt at the stake by the true believers in another brand.

The Vicar of Bray famously made a habit of regularly swapping sides to
stay in business depending on which way the wind was blowing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vicar_of_Bray

Bringing it back to astronomy Laplace first used the technique to
estimate the mass of Saturn based on the evidence available to him.

Imagine a bowl filled with fine grsined sand. How many grains of sand
are there in the bowl? Undoubtedly a very large number - but is that
large number an even number or an odd number? You will never know - but
what do you **believe**?


x=1/2 ;-)

Do really everyone have to be an "evenist" or an "oddist"? If not, why
do everyone have to be a theist or an atheist? Why exclude the
alternative of refraining from choosing a belief here?


It is a feature of how people behave in the absence of evidence.
Strictly it codifies the state of belief about such a binary question in
the total abscence of any evidence at all.

It stems ultitmately from consideration of group invariance properties
on the interval between 0 and 1.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #149  
Old September 25th 18, 09:47 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 9:12:14 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

“I'd far rather be happy than right any day.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy


It's better to be right. About some things, at least.

Being wrong can lead to you being happy temporarily, and then dead permanently.
One needs to be as aware as possible of the reality of the world around you,
including the things that are not as you wish them to be, in order to maximize
your chances of survival.

John Savard
  #150  
Old September 25th 18, 10:27 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,824
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Gary Harnagel wrote:
On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Kujisalimisha wrote:

Gary Harnagel wrote in
:

I believe that anything that exists is knowable (potentially).


Reality does not require your belief to be reality.


“I reject your reality and substitute my own.” – Adam Savage

“I'd far rather be happy than right any day.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy


Douglas Adams had this to say about religion:

“I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does
mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously.”
Douglas Adams

 




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