Next genuine advance in imaging astronomy

The Ra/Dec system reflects a particular observational convenience
based on predictable positions of foreground objects against what is
effectively a rotating celestial sphere.

The convenience of this system is well documented as is its
limitations but the limitations are providing impossible obstacles to
the advancement of sequential imaging and time lapse footage in
context of the celestial arena.

The eye that looks out into the celestial arena via the Ra/Dec system
is blind to depth and scale perception and this is where the next
advance will come -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

On Mar 6, 6:45*am, oriel36 wrote:
The Ra/Dec system reflects a particular observational convenience
based on predictable positions of foreground objects against what is
effectively a rotating celestial sphere.

The convenience of this system is well documented as is its
limitations but the limitations *are providing impossible obstacles to
the advancement of sequential imaging and time lapse footage in
context of the celestial arena.

The eye that looks out into the celestial arena via the Ra/Dec system
is blind to depth and scale perception and this is where the next
advance will come -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

What does time lapse photography of apparent retrograde motion have to
do with RA/DEC?

On 6 Ìáñ, 23:36, JHSteinberg wrote:
On Mar 6, 6:45*am, oriel36 wrote:

The Ra/Dec system reflects a particular observational convenience
based on predictable positions of foreground objects against what is
effectively a rotating celestial sphere.

The convenience of this system is well documented as is its
limitations but the limitations *are providing impossible obstacles to
the advancement of sequential imaging and time lapse footage in
context of the celestial arena.

The eye that looks out into the celestial arena via the Ra/Dec system
is blind to depth and scale perception and this is where the next
advance will come -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

What does time lapse photography of apparent retrograde motion have to
do with RA/DEC?

Hey John,

GREAT to see you back!

As to your question, you are in for a wild ride with this twisted
puppy! Remember to ask him for his thoughts on my analemmas. ;-)

Anthony.

On Mar 6, 3:36*pm, JHSteinberg wrote:


What does time lapse photography of apparent retrograde motion have to
do with RA/DEC?

My advice, John...don't even bother to ask. LOL

On 7 Ìáñ, 01:36, rmollise wrote:
On Mar 6, 3:36*pm, JHSteinberg wrote:



What does time lapse photography of apparent retrograde motion have to
do with RA/DEC?

My advice, John...don't even bother to ask. LOL

John Steinberg + oriel = match made in heaven .... I am getting front
row seats for this one!!!!!

Anthony.

Could you give us a translabation?



oriel36 wrote:

The Ra/Dec system reflects a particular observational convenience
based on predictable positions of foreground objects against what is
effectively a rotating celestial sphere.

The convenience of this system is well documented as is its
limitations but the limitations are providing impossible obstacles to
the advancement of sequential imaging and time lapse footage in
context of the celestial arena.

The eye that looks out into the celestial arena via the Ra/Dec system
is blind to depth and scale perception and this is where the next
advance will come -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

On Mar 6, 9:36*pm, JHSteinberg wrote:
On Mar 6, 6:45*am, oriel36 wrote:

The Ra/Dec system reflects a particular observational convenience
based on predictable positions of foreground objects against what is
effectively a rotating celestial sphere.

The convenience of this system is well documented as is its
limitations but the limitations *are providing impossible obstacles to
the advancement of sequential imaging and time lapse footage in
context of the celestial arena.

The eye that looks out into the celestial arena via the Ra/Dec system
is blind to depth and scale perception and this is where the next
advance will come -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

What does time lapse photography of apparent retrograde motion have to
do with RA/DEC?

The time lapse footage is actually what we see from an orbitally
moving Earth,the insight of Copernicus was giving true depth
perception to solar system structure by using the observed behavior of
the other planets as a means to extract the principle of our planetary
orbital motion between Venus and Mars with a central stationary Sun
infered.


http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html


Newton built on the Equatorial Coordinate System of Flamsteed whereby
depth perception in the resolution for retrogrades suffers a
catastrophic loss -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct, " Newton

Modern imaging and techniques are simply too powerful for the
calendar based Ra/Dec convenience based on the idea that a return of
a star to a local meridian represents daily rotation as an independent
motion.I have already moved my work in the direction of working with
modern imaging such as using planetary comparisons as a means to
determine the distinction between climate and weather rather than
going to all the trouble of untangling the maneuvering of Flamsteed/
Newton to get their late 17th century respective agendas to work by
means of distortions and just plain poor reasoning.I am eager to see
moderm imaging put to better use,such as the time lapse footage
example above of depth perception as a consequence of an orbitally
moving Earth rather than be restricted to pointing out late 17th
century errors and distortions.

On Mar 7, 6:17*am, oriel36 wrote:
On Mar 6, 9:36*pm, JHSteinberg wrote:



On Mar 6, 6:45*am, oriel36 wrote:

The Ra/Dec system reflects a particular observational convenience
based on predictable positions of foreground objects against what is
effectively a rotating celestial sphere.

The convenience of this system is well documented as is its
limitations but the limitations *are providing impossible obstacles to
the advancement of sequential imaging and time lapse footage in
context of the celestial arena.

The eye that looks out into the celestial arena via the Ra/Dec system
is blind to depth and scale perception and this is where the next
advance will come -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

What does time lapse photography of apparent retrograde motion have to
do with RA/DEC?

The time lapse footage is actually what we see from an orbitally
moving Earth,the insight of Copernicus was giving true *depth
perception to solar system structure by using the observed behavior of
the other planets as a means to extract the principle of our planetary
orbital motion between Venus and Mars with a central stationary Sun
infered.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

Newton built on the Equatorial Coordinate System of Flamsteed whereby
depth perception in the resolution for retrogrades suffers a
catastrophic loss -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct, " Newton

Modern imaging *and techniques are simply too powerful for the
calendar based Ra/Dec convenience *based on the idea that a return of
a star to a local meridian represents daily rotation as an independent
motion.I have already moved my work in the direction of working with
modern imaging such as using planetary comparisons as a means to
determine the distinction between climate and weather *rather than
going to all the trouble of untangling the maneuvering of Flamsteed/
Newton to get their late 17th century respective agendas to work by
means of distortions and just plain poor reasoning.I am eager to see
moderm imaging put to better use,such as the *time lapse footage
example above of depth perception as a consequence of an orbitally
moving Earth rather than be restricted to pointing out late 17th
century errors and distortions.

I really just don't see how they're even mutually exclusive. Even if
you think that observing the stars with time-lapse photography is the
forward, it's not a coordinate system, and it can't be a replacement
for a coordinate system - it doesn't give you the location of objects
in space, which is the very function of such a system. Ra/Dec whatever
it may be - I don't know if it has some additional value beyond what
I've read - is just a coordinate system. You seem to be saying that
you'd like to replace latitude and longitude in favor of detailed
videos of the landscape; while I'm sure the videos would be both
helpful and beautiful, they'd serve an entirely different purpose than
latitude and longitude. Is there a particular reason you couldn't get
the most advantage and enjoyment out of using both? I don't see a
problem in using video for its strengths, and coordinates for their
strengths, to complement one another.

In relation to that, I see why Ra/DEC would lose depth perception, but
it would seem to me not to be a "loss" as "missing as intended." Ra/
DEC, like latitude and longitude, is a two-dimensional system - it
doesn't depict the distance of stars at all. What would be the value
in having the distance to the stars included in the system? It
wouldn't actually help an astronomer locate a celestial object, would
it? And by "depth perception," I am assuming you mean distance to the
stars - since by definition, there couldn't be a celestial coordinate
system that lets you "perceive the depth" of stars. That's a function
of neurology, not coordinates.

Maybe I've just misunderstood you. It's obvious from the above that I
had to infer your meaning in a few places, so if I misunderstood,
please do clarify.

Oh, and, it's James, not John - but I'm flattered you all thought of
me by name

On Mar 7, 1:03*pm, JHSteinberg wrote:
On Mar 7, 6:17*am, oriel36 wrote:





On Mar 6, 9:36*pm, JHSteinberg wrote:

On Mar 6, 6:45*am, oriel36 wrote:

The Ra/Dec system reflects a particular observational convenience
based on predictable positions of foreground objects against what is
effectively a rotating celestial sphere.

The convenience of this system is well documented as is its
limitations but the limitations *are providing impossible obstacles to
the advancement of sequential imaging and time lapse footage in
context of the celestial arena.

The eye that looks out into the celestial arena via the Ra/Dec system
is blind to depth and scale perception and this is where the next
advance will come -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

What does time lapse photography of apparent retrograde motion have to
do with RA/DEC?

The time lapse footage is actually what we see from an orbitally
moving Earth,the insight of Copernicus was giving true *depth
perception to solar system structure by using the observed behavior of
the other planets as a means to extract the principle of our planetary
orbital motion between Venus and Mars with a central stationary Sun
infered.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

Newton built on the Equatorial Coordinate System of Flamsteed whereby
depth perception in the resolution for retrogrades suffers a
catastrophic loss -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct, " Newton

Modern imaging *and techniques are simply too powerful for the
calendar based Ra/Dec convenience *based on the idea that a return of
a star to a local meridian represents daily rotation as an independent
motion.I have already moved my work in the direction of working with
modern imaging such as using planetary comparisons as a means to
determine the distinction between climate and weather *rather than
going to all the trouble of untangling the maneuvering of Flamsteed/
Newton to get their late 17th century respective agendas to work by
means of distortions and just plain poor reasoning.I am eager to see
moderm imaging put to better use,such as the *time lapse footage
example above of depth perception as a consequence of an orbitally
moving Earth rather than be restricted to pointing out late 17th
century errors and distortions.

I really just don't see how they're even mutually exclusive. Even if
you think that observing the stars with time-lapse photography is the
forward, it's not a coordinate system, and it can't be a replacement
for a coordinate system - it doesn't give you the location of objects
in space, which is the very function of such a system. Ra/Dec whatever
it may be - I don't know if it has some additional value beyond what
I've read - is just a coordinate system. You seem to be saying that
you'd like to replace latitude and longitude in favor of detailed
videos of the landscape; while I'm sure the videos would be both
helpful and beautiful, they'd serve an entirely different purpose than
latitude and longitude. Is there a particular reason you couldn't get
the most advantage and enjoyment out of using both? I don't see a
problem in using video for its strengths, and coordinates for their
strengths, to complement one another.


It is not what I say ,it is what you don't say that is crucial for the
advancement of imaging in terms of depth perception for effectively it
is bypassing 3 centuries of err





In relation to that, I see why Ra/DEC would lose depth perception, but
it would seem to me not to be a "loss" as "missing as intended." Ra/
DEC, like latitude and longitude, is a two-dimensional system - it
doesn't depict the distance of stars at all. What would be the value
in having the distance to the stars included in the system? It
wouldn't actually help an astronomer locate a celestial object, would
it? And by "depth perception," I am assuming you mean distance to the
stars - since by definition, there couldn't be a celestial coordinate
system that lets you "perceive the depth" of stars. That's a function
of neurology, not coordinates.

Maybe I've just misunderstood you. It's obvious from the above that I
had to infer your meaning in a few places, so if I misunderstood,
please do clarify.

Oh, and, it's James, not John - but I'm flattered you all thought of
me by name - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Mar 7, 1:03*pm, JHSteinberg wrote:

In relation to that, I see why Ra/DEC would lose depth perception, but
it would seem to me not to be a "loss" as "missing as intended." Ra/
DEC, like latitude and longitude, is a two-dimensional system - it
doesn't depict the distance of stars at all. What would be the value
in having the distance to the stars included in the system? It
wouldn't actually help an astronomer locate a celestial object, would
it? And by "depth perception," I am assuming you mean distance to the
stars - since by definition, there couldn't be a celestial coordinate
system that lets you "perceive the depth" of stars. That's a function
of neurology, not coordinates.


Depth percetion,in this case,refers strictly to the orbital motion of
the Earth in resolving the observed behavior of the other planets -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

The original insight of Copernicus and the refinement by Kepler used
the constellational background as a gauge for planetary motion as did
the antecedent geocentric astronomers and especially in determining
orbital periods of the planets through which the solar system
arrangement is derived *.The difference between a geocentric view of
an immobile Earth at the center of the solar system and an orbitally
moving Earth which replaced it relies solely on the ability to judge
relative motions between our planet and the others but always from an
orbitally moving Earth,in short,depth perception.

The mutation introduced by Flamsteed via the Equatorial Coordinate
System was to set the constellational background in motion through the
newly invented clocks by equating the return of a star to a meridian
as denoting the daily rotation of the Earth -

"... our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I
doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be
isochronical..." Flamsteed wrote in a letter in 1677

The equating of the motion of celestial sphere geometry with a
stationary Earth is the equivalent to equating a rotating Earth to a
stationary celestial sphere,assuming you are still interested,it gets
worse.The direct linkage between daily rotation and celestial sphere
geometry as a independent 'fact' is promoted as 23 hours 56 minutes 04
seconds through 360 degrees but the full expression is much different
- a star returns to a meridian in 23 hours 56 minutes 04 seconds of a
24 hour day based on the equable 365/366 day calendar convenience.













* 'THE ORDER OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERES Chapter 10 '


"Of all things visible, the highest is the heaven of the fixed stars.
This, I see, is doubted by nobody. But the ancient philosophers
wanted
to arrange the planets in accordance with the duration of the
revolutions. Their principle assumes that of objects moving equally
fast, those farther away seem to travel more slowly, as is proved in
Euclid's Optics. The moon revolves in the shortest period of time
because, in their opinion, it runs on the smallest circle as the
nearest to the earth. The highest planet, on the other hand, is
Saturn, which completes the biggest circuit in the longest time.
Below
it is Jupiter, followed by Mars.


With regard to Venus and Mercury, however, differences of opinion are
found. For, these planets do not pass through every elongation from
the sun, as the other planets do. Hence Venus and Mercury are located
above the sun by some authorities, like Plato's Timaeus [38 D], but
below the sun by others, like Ptolemy [Syntaxis, IX, 1] and many of
the modems. Al-Bitruji places Venus above the sun, and Mercury below
it. " Copernicus







Maybe I've just misunderstood you. It's obvious from the above that I
had to infer your meaning in a few places, so if I misunderstood,
please do clarify.

Oh, and, it's James, not John - but I'm flattered you all thought of
me by name - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The crucial diagram where I do believe the depth perception created by
Copernicus in resolving the observed 'backward' motions of the other
planets can be clearly distinguished from the 'hypothetical observer
on the Sun' mutation introduced by Newton( by his exploiting the
'predictive' nature of the Ra/Dec convenience) .This diagram is the
Panis Quadragesimalis of Kepler -

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the earth,
entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils [spiris],
leading the individual planets into their respective orbits
[orbitas],quite bare and very nearly circular. In the period of time
shown in the diagram, Mars traverses one and the same orbit as many
times as the 'garlands' [corollas] you see looped towards the
centre,with one extra, making nine times, while at the same time the
Earth repeats its circle sixteen times " Kepler refering to diagram
on page 86 -

http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals/pdf/POSC_13_1_74_0.pdf

He is,of course describing the same thing we now would be able to take
for granted with our imaging power ,just as Jupiter and Saturn can be
gauged against the constellational background without setting that
background in motion -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

I am under no obligation to go beyond this as I am eager to promote
astronomy as I am sure everyone else is here but I will comment on
Newton's mutation as it appears in reference to the resolution of
retrogrades and in reference to the diagram of Kepler -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct, " Newton

Again,depth perception via an orbitally moving Earth is lost in that
illegal perspective and is replaced by a hypothetical observer on
the Sun.If you look at the diagram (Page 86) Kepler drew out of the
combined motions of the Earth and Mars ,it appears that Newton simply
looked at the retrograde loops as denoting a stationary Earth and
placing the Sun at the center of the diagram would make the loops
disappear !.

If promoting astronomy is a common goal,then why not take a closer
look at that diagram of Kepler's allied with the modern time lapse
footage and you may see the outlines of what is happening on all
scores.Unlike others I actually take what Newton said seriously in how
he arrived at his conclusions or the creation of things such as
absolute/relative space,time ect.Again,I am under no obligation to
concentrate on the errors,only that they will hinder a more dynamic
approach to the next level of astronomy and its appreciation.