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Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonable priced telescope?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 3rd 11, 09:54 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Too_Many_Tools
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Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonable priced telescope?

I was talking to a group of parents recently where the subject of
introducing their kids to science specifically astronomy came up.

Much was made about the fact that one either has to buy junk or pay a
significant price for a starter scope.

They had a good point.

The fact that the mags couldn't do a real review if they had to
doesn't help.

We have also seen prices drop for what one can buy since the Chinese
has entered the market...evidence there has been price fixing in
place.

I had one mother discuss her experiences on CN where she sought advice
as to which scope to buy for her son...what a train wreck.

The advice of serveral CNers was to spend several thousand dollars on
a scope...anything else was deemed inferior.

  #2  
Old February 3rd 11, 05:31 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
pete[_8_]
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Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonablepriced telescope?

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 00:54:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I was talking to a group of parents recently where the subject of
introducing their kids to science specifically astronomy came up.

Much was made about the fact that one either has to buy junk or pay a
significant price for a starter scope.

They had a good point.


I wouldn't be too hard on the "junk".
The term is only relative and ISTM even the low priced stuff you
find in non-specialist stores and on ebay is at least comparable
in quality (and definitely cheaper) to what was comsidered a good
starter 'scope when I first became interested in the 60's.


--
http://thisreallyismyhost.99k.org/03...6251623025.php
  #3  
Old February 3rd 11, 09:47 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Brian Tung[_5_]
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Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonablepriced telescope?

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I was talking to a group of parents recently where the subject of
introducing their kids to science specifically astronomy came up.

Much was made about the fact that one either has to buy junk or pay a
significant price for a starter scope.

They had a good point.


I'd say the world isn't divided into junk scopes and premium
scopes. There's a lot of space in between, and many quite
decent scopes live there.

Granted, a lot depends on what you mean by "significant
price." If by that you mean more than $50, then yeah, you
may need to do that. But considering that telescopes are
very long-lived, it's just not that much money.

The fact that the mags couldn't do a real review if they had to
doesn't help.

We have also seen prices drop*for what one can buy since the Chinese
has entered the market...evidence there has been price fixing in
place.


I'm not sure one can draw that conclusion. Firms charged
what the market would bear. Now they're compelled to charge
less. I don't see any clear sign of collusion there. At any rate,
unless they're also being compelled to produce lower-quality
telescopes (and I don't believe they are), there's not really
much of a problem here.

I had one mother discuss her experiences on CN where she sought advice
as to which scope to buy for her son...what a train wreck.

The advice of serveral CNers was to spend several thousand dollars on
a scope...anything else was deemed inferior.


So the advice of a few goldeneyes was unreasonable.
There are places other than CN to get advice. Getting
people out to real public star parties (where people with
ordinary decent non-premium scopes frequent) is how we
can funnel people toward reasonable advice.

--
Brian Tung (posting from Google Groups)
The Astronomy Corner at http://www.astronomycorner.net/
Unofficial C5+ Page at http://www.astronomycorner.net/c5plus/
My PleiadAtlas Page at http://www.astronomycorner.net/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ at http://www.astronomycorner.net/reference/faq.html
  #4  
Old February 3rd 11, 10:57 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonablepriced telescope?

On Feb 3, 1:47*pm, Brian Tung wrote:

So the advice of a few goldeneyes was unreasonable.


Generally speaking, the difference between a 75mm aperture refractor
and a 150mm aperture reflector are reproducible and objective, due to
the diffraction limit.

It isn't at all comparable to transient intermodulation distortion,
which was a problem with amplifiers with slow transistors and too much
feedback, that wasn't initially noted by the audio industry until the
"golden ears" pointed it out.

A 4" telescope - 100mm aperture - can afford exciting views of at
least one planet, Jupiter. Edmund Scientific's Astroscan is probably
what people have in mind when they're thinking of a "quality" beginner
telescope, as opposed to typical achromatic refractors in the 60mm -
75mm aperture range.

I think the reason why one doesn't see Astroscans - or specimens of
their Bausch and Lomb imitator - in more places is simple enough. They
aren't what the market demands. Parents get starter telescopes for
their kids with which they can look at the Moon... and if people are
serious about astronomy, usually they will be spending the money for
"real" astronomical telescopes. Whether an 80mm apochromatic
refractor, or a 200mm Schmidt-Cassegrain, or a 14" Dobsonian... is up
to the individual's proclivities.

Given that the single biggest observing problem is light pollution,
most people who are active in astronomy as a hobby, at least in North
America, can afford a car with which to drive out into the country on
weekends, so they can also afford to spend a bit on hobbies they're
serious about. And amateur astronomy does take some time and
dedication.

John Savard
  #5  
Old February 4th 11, 03:58 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Davoud[_1_]
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Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonable priced telescope?

Too_Many_Tools:

I was talking to a group of parents recently where the subject of
introducing their kids to science specifically astronomy came up.

Much was made about the fact that one either has to buy junk or pay a
significant price for a starter scope.


This is a bit vague. "Significant price" has greatly differing meanings
in a Third-World country like the USA. While some would find $800 (nice
Orion Dob) to be significant, a minority would consider $25,000 to be
trivial. So what did your group of parents consider to be significant?

They had a good point.


The fact that the mags couldn't do a real review if they had to
doesn't help.


We have also seen prices drop for what one can buy since the Chinese
has entered the market...evidence there has been price fixing in
place.


I had one mother discuss her experiences on CN where she sought advice
as to which scope to buy for her son...what a train wreck.


The advice of serveral CNers was to spend several thousand dollars on
a scope...anything else was deemed inferior.


Lotta smugness in this hobby. Human nature, etc. Tell her to call
Company 7 and discuss her son's desires.

Davoud

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
  #6  
Old February 4th 11, 05:26 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
jwarner1[_2_]
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Posts: 45
Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonable pricedtelescope?



Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I was talking to a group of parents recently where the subject of
introducing their kids to science specifically astronomy came up.

Much was made about the fact that one either has to buy junk or pay a
significant price for a starter scope.

They had a good point.

The fact that the mags couldn't do a real review if they had to
doesn't help.

We have also seen prices drop for what one can buy since the Chinese
has entered the market...evidence there has been price fixing in
place.

I had one mother discuss her experiences on CN where she sought advice
as to which scope to buy for her son...what a train wreck.

The advice of serveral CNers was to spend several thousand dollars on
a scope...anything else was deemed inferior.


One major issue is lack of depreciation (price point) due to inflation.

There are FAR more scopes available to day than when I started. About
the only scope to get for a serious kid was one of the Criterion
dyascopes.
They held their price point for quite a few years and did not depreciate
radically over the same period. Starting price ($50.00) was acceptable to
most parents seeking a major gift for a serious child The scopes worked
well enough that even the arent should share in the experience and be
pleased withthe results. This gave parents confidence the kid was on the
right track ....

What would a comparable scope be today .... for what price point?

There in is the hub of the problem.... as I see it.



  #7  
Old February 4th 11, 05:28 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
jwarner1[_2_]
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Posts: 45
Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonable pricedtelescope?


This is a bit vague. "Significant price" has greatly differing meanings
in a Third-World country like the USA. While some would find $800 (nice
Orion Dob) to be significant, a minority would consider $25,000 to be
trivial. So what did your group of parents consider to be significant?


Getwith the program, stop bull ****ting!



  #8  
Old February 4th 11, 07:33 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Dan Birchall[_3_]
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Posts: 173
Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonable priced telescope?

(Too_Many_Tools) wrote:
I was talking to a group of parents recently where the subject of
introducing their kids to science specifically astronomy came up.
Much was made about the fact that one either has to buy junk or pay a
significant price for a starter scope.


Eh, what age kids, and what's "significant?" I've taught plenty of 3-4
year olds how to use a Telrad-equipped Orion XT 4.5 Dobs at the visitor
station here on Mauna Kea, and anything much bigger than that is too
tall for them to reach the eyepiece when it's near zenith anyway.

A $200 scope like that is enough to see the Moon, phases of Venus,
color difference of Mars, Galilean Moons of Jupiter, rings of Saturn,
colors of Uranus and Neptune (if you can find them), and extended
things like M42, clusters like the Pleiades or Omega Centauri, any
reasonably bright comets, etc. If seeing that kind of variety of
targets doesn't make someone think astronomy is interesting, I'm
not sure spending extra money would.

Sure, spending $500 or $5,000 or $50,000 or $350,000,000 (see .sig)
buys more aperture, better optics, better CCDS, better tracking,
guiding, adaptive optics, nice enclosures, and all those goodies.
But you don't have to _start_ with that.

-Dan

--
djb@ | Dan Birchall - Observation System Associate - Subaru Telescope.
naoj | Views I express are my own, certainly not those of my employer.
..org | Why do phasers have fewer settings than Kitchenaid bowl mixers?
  #9  
Old February 4th 11, 07:51 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Androcles[_39_]
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Posts: 134
Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonable priced telescope?


"Dan Birchall" wrote in message
...
| (Too_Many_Tools) wrote:
| I was talking to a group of parents recently where the subject of
| introducing their kids to science specifically astronomy came up.
| Much was made about the fact that one either has to buy junk or pay a
| significant price for a starter scope.
|
| Eh, what age kids, and what's "significant?" I've taught plenty of 3-4
| year olds how to use a Telrad-equipped Orion XT 4.5 Dobs at the visitor
| station here on Mauna Kea, and anything much bigger than that is too
| tall for them to reach the eyepiece when it's near zenith anyway.
|
| A $200 scope like that is enough to see the Moon, phases of Venus,
| color difference of Mars, Galilean Moons of Jupiter, rings of Saturn,
| colors of Uranus and Neptune (if you can find them), and extended
| things like M42, clusters like the Pleiades or Omega Centauri, any
| reasonably bright comets, etc. If seeing that kind of variety of
| targets doesn't make someone think astronomy is interesting, I'm
| not sure spending extra money would.
|
| Sure, spending $500 or $5,000 or $50,000 or $350,000,000 (see .sig)
| buys more aperture, better optics, better CCDS, better tracking,
| guiding, adaptive optics, nice enclosures, and all those goodies.
| But you don't have to _start_ with that.
|
| -Dan
|
$200 for 400-year-old technology when one can buy a smart phone
for $50, both the kid and the parent will go for the phone every time.



  #10  
Old February 4th 11, 09:16 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Too_Many_Tools
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Posts: 621
Default Thoughts on why companies can't or won't produce a reasonablepriced telescope?

On Feb 3, 2:54*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I was talking to a group of parents recently where the subject of
introducing their kids to science specifically astronomy came up.

Much was made about the fact that one either has to buy junk or pay a
significant price for a starter scope.

They had a good point.

The fact that the mags couldn't do a real review if they had to
doesn't help.

We have also seen prices drop *for what one can buy since the Chinese
has entered the market...evidence there has been price fixing in
place.

I had one mother discuss her experiences on CN where she sought advice
as to which scope to buy for her son...what a train wreck.

The advice of serveral CNers was to spend several thousand dollars on
a scope...anything else was deemed inferior.


Well for a dollar amount let's try this...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_d...hristmas_gifts

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_...on_chr istmas

So $800 - $935 for a family for Christmas.

Average family of 4 so $200 - 233.

I believe this is on the high side since the amounts they show would
be for all gifts for all people the family gives to.

So...what telescope can one buy for $200 - 233 ...no more...for a
child?

TMT
 




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