Why Colonize Space?

In sci.physics trag wrote:
On Aug 4, 1:00 pm, wrote:

Other than most of the parts have house numbers on them and you can't
determine the OEM part number and absent some rather expensive test
equipment you can't in general trouble shoot to the component level,
what's so hard about it? :-)

Come watch the artists over on the Classic Computer list some time...

By "Classic Computer" I assume you mean something like a PDP-11.

A 5 year old X86 that can be replaced for next to nothing is hardly
worth the effort.



--
Jim Pennino

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In sci.physics trag wrote:
On Aug 5, 6:54 am, jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote:
trag wrote:
On Aug 4, 7:57 am, jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote:

ummm...computers will be the first to disappear. You can't fix
them.

Of course you can. You can't fix the individual chips, but a well
equipped kitchen and paint shop (plus a soldering pencil) has all the
tools you need to replace the components on the circuit boards.

And where are you going to get those components? And where are
you going to get the power to run the system?

Well, since we were talking about an ark situation, presumably there
would be a carefully selected stock. But failing that, the most
efficient storage method is probably to have some number of working
computers. As they fail, you cannibalize to keep as many working as
you can.

Assuming they are all the same and not a collection of random Chinese
manufacturers.


--
Jim Pennino

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jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote:

Greg Goss wrote:
"John F. Eldredge" wrote:

And, since smallpox virus still exists in storage in various
laboratories, it is possible that it may someday make a comeback, either
intentionally or by accident. It is only extinct in the wild.

In a world with 5000 humans and a virus that can only live in humans
in a destroyed lab -- the refrigeration would fail long before the
"ark" humans would leave their mineshaft. A world with "no" humans to
infect and an essentially destroyed infrastructure would no longer
have smallpox, either in storage or in the wild.

If there were subsistence humans near the ruined lab, then we're into
a completely different story than an ark situation

You are forgetting the swine flu.

I was talking about smallpox. Flu gets along fine in birds and pigs
at least, and probably in other animals. It's not human-only like
smallpox and polio.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27

:::: Bearings may also be made from oily woods,

:: Those are wagons. I was curious about sailing ships of yore. What
:: would require ball bearings? I can see using pulleys but those don't
:: use ball bearings.

Wait, *ball* bearings? Wagons had roller bearings, right?
I wouldn't think wooden ball bearings would work so well.


Wayne Throop http://sheol.org/throopw

wrote:
In sci.physics trag wrote:
On Aug 5, 6:54 am, jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote:
trag wrote:
On Aug 4, 7:57 am, jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote:

ummm...computers will be the first to disappear. You can't fix
them.

Of course you can. You can't fix the individual chips, but a well
equipped kitchen and paint shop (plus a soldering pencil) has all
the tools you need to replace the components on the circuit boards.

And where are you going to get those components? And where are
you going to get the power to run the system?

Well, since we were talking about an ark situation, presumably there
would be a carefully selected stock. But failing that, the most
efficient storage method is probably to have some number of working
computers. As they fail, you cannibalize to keep as many working as
you can.

Assuming they are all the same and not a collection of random Chinese
manufacturers.

All you need is a decent stock of motherboards and
power supplys and use those when something fails etc.

trag wrote:
On Aug 4, 12:35 pm, Les Cargill wrote:
trag wrote:
On Aug 4, 7:57 am, jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote:
ummm...computers will be the first to disappear. You can't fix
them.
Of course you can. You can't fix the individual chips, but a well
equipped kitchen and paint shop (plus a soldering pencil) has all the
tools you need to replace the components on the circuit boards. To
make things easier, you could stock older tech computers whose
components are easier to solder/desolder, i.e., QFPs instead of BGAs.
This doesn't really work in practice. I mean it *REALLY doesn't
work, and it costs far too much to try.

Gee that's a surprise to me, since I'm speaking from experience,
having changed out 208 pin QFPs and assorted other chips using a heat
gun, modeling clay, a couple of soldering pencils, dental picks,
solder, cleaning solvent and a bottle of flux. I haven't tried the
techniques for home soldering BGAs yet, but many folks claim to have
used them successfully, e.g., on the Xilinx BGA parts. That would
require adding a toaster oven, oven thermometer and kitchen timer.

Now, costs too much to try is a whole other topic.

Hence "costs far too much to try".

It costs lots of
time compared to industrial techniques. But in a survival situation,

I'd be pretty skeptical of *that*, too... having dealt
with people with large installed bases of obsolete stuff,
it's just a vale of pain. You'd have to be in a state where
the value of labor was very low, and I have to wonder then if
things like the power grid and other support services
would make it worthwhile.

trading time for irreplaceable equipment is a reasonable economic
choice. You wouldn't want to try to manufacture a million (or even
10,000) of the things with these methods, but that's not what we were
discussing.

My success rate hand desoldering and resoldering 208 pin QFPs with
those improvised tools is 100% after a short learning curve.




I have seen it done myself, but ... you know what I mean.

--
Les Cargill

trag wrote
jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote
trag wrote
jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote

ummm...computers will be the first to disappear. You can't fix them.

Of course you can. You can't fix the individual chips, but a well
equipped kitchen and paint shop (plus a soldering pencil) has all
the tools you need to replace the components on the circuit boards.

And where are you going to get those components?
And where are you going to get the power to run the system?

Well, since we were talking about an ark situation, presumably there
would be a carefully selected stock. But failing that, the most
efficient storage method is probably to have some number of working
computers. As they fail, you cannibalize to keep as many working as
you can.

If you are trying to run computers, then you still have a source
of power. If you don't have power, there's no point in fixing the
computers any way. But in that case, computers weren't the first
to go. They went along with everything else that required power.

Trivial to provide the power with solar etc.

To make things easier, you could stock older tech computers whose
components are easier to solder/desolder, i.e., QFPs instead of BGAs.

Most of those doughnuts are in the dump.

Most, but most is a majority of millions. There are still thousands
kicking around which could be stocked in a survival shelter. And
enough non-BGA components around, that if one were really planning,
custom systems could be built. The FPGAs are still sold in QFP
packages as well as BGA.

Makes a lot more sense to not bother with component level repair
and just have a decent supply of motherboards/power suplys etc.

"Wayne Throop" wrote in message
...
:::: Bearings may also be made from oily woods,

:: Those are wagons. I was curious about sailing ships of yore. What
:: would require ball bearings? I can see using pulleys but those don't
:: use ball bearings.

Wait, *ball* bearings? Wagons had roller bearings, right?
I wouldn't think wooden ball bearings would work so well.


Wouldn't work in a big-end or crankshaft journal either, and most cars
use needle rollers in their wheels.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Engine.gif
http://www.germes-online.com/direct/...er_Bearing.jpg

"Rod Speed" writes:
wrote:
In sci.physics trag wrote:
On Aug 5, 6:54 am, jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote:
trag wrote:
On Aug 4, 7:57 am, jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote:

ummm...computers will be the first to disappear. You can't fix
them.

Of course you can. You can't fix the individual chips, but a well
equipped kitchen and paint shop (plus a soldering pencil) has all
the tools you need to replace the components on the circuit boards.

And where are you going to get those components? And where are
you going to get the power to run the system?

Well, since we were talking about an ark situation, presumably there
would be a carefully selected stock. But failing that, the most
efficient storage method is probably to have some number of working
computers. As they fail, you cannibalize to keep as many working as
you can.

Assuming they are all the same and not a collection of random Chinese
manufacturers.

All you need is a decent stock of motherboards and
power supplys and use those when something fails etc.


What software you gonna run on this? Got all the drivers for each
of the mainboard chipsets, pci bridges, pci, pci-x, pci-express
adapters, onboard ATA, SATA, SCSI or Fibrechannel controllers?

Are your controllers compatible with your drives? Does the power supply
supply the required current at the correct voltages?

Disks wear out. 5 years in a non-climate-controlled environment will
be a long-lived disk. New Disks stored in non-climate controlled conditions
will not last much more than a decade and will have a high initial failure
rate (stiction issues).

Scott Lurndal wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote
trag wrote
jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote
trag wrote
jmfbahciv jmfbahciv@aol wrote

ummm...computers will be the first to disappear. You can't fix them.

Of course you can. You can't fix the individual chips, but a
well equipped kitchen and paint shop (plus a soldering pencil)
has all the tools you need to replace the components on the
circuit boards.

And where are you going to get those components?
And where are you going to get the power to run the system?

Well, since we were talking about an ark situation, presumably
there would be a carefully selected stock. But failing that, the
most efficient storage method is probably to have some number of
working computers. As they fail, you cannibalize to keep as many
working as you can.

Assuming they are all the same and not a collection of random
Chinese manufacturers.

All you need is a decent stock of motherboards and
power supplys and use those when something fails etc.

What software you gonna run on this?

Whatever you had enough of a clue to put in the anti meteor store.

Got all the drivers for each of the mainboard chipsets, pci bridges, pci, pci-x,
pci-express adapters, onboard ATA, SATA, SCSI or Fibrechannel controllers?

Completely trivial to make sure you have all those for the
motherboards you choose to put in the anti meteor store.

Are your controllers compatible with your drives?

Completely trivial to make sure of that with what you choose to put in the anti meteor store.

Does the power supply supply the required current at the correct voltages?

Completely trivial to make sure of that with what you choose to put in the anti meteor store.

Disks wear out.

Wrong. The absolute vast bulk of them never do and are replaced
because more space is needed for new stuff like PVRs etc.

5 years in a non-climate-controlled environment will be a long-lived disk.

Complete and utter pig ignorant drivel. None of mine have anything even
remotely resembling anything like a non-climate-controlled environment
and I've got plenty that have lasted longer than that and which I no
longer use because I keep buying TB+ drives for the media files.

New Disks stored in non-climate controlled
conditions will not last much more than a decade

Complete and utter pig ignorant drivel. I've got drives older than that that still work fine.

and will have a high initial failure rate (stiction issues).

Stiction doesnt happen anymore with modern drives because they dont stop with the heads on the platter anymore.