NASA formally unveils lunar exploration architecture

Does an elevator have an incredibly long cable system that reaches the moon?
"Brad Guth" wrote in message
oups.com...
George Evans;
I'm confused, so we're talking about an elevator at the moon?
Join the club because the answer is YES, as with most such silly
notions regarding "elevators", in this instance we're also talking
about an elevator that's going up from the surface of the moon, as per
that elevator riding the rails or whatever upon a suitable tether
that's going nearly straight up, as in up, up and away until it reaches
the massive counter mass(CM/ISS) ball in the sky that's going to nicely
reside itself at being somewhere external to the gravity pull of the
moon. In this instance it's known as the near zero-G realm or somewhat
of a gravity zone of relative calm as also having been called a mutual
gravity-well or nullification zone at ME-L1/EM-L2 that's a wee bit
interactive with it's terrestrial and solar associations. Now then,
this isn't quite so simple as you'd think because, there needs to be a
moderate degree of interactive elements involved, and/or a little R&D
over-kill, but that's entirely manageable.

I hope you appreciate the fact that I am taking you seriously.
I do very much appreciate your honest feedback, even if it's not
entirely focused nor all that positive. However, the hell I'm hoping
that you don't say "seriously" within the same context as per believing
that we've walked upon the moon?

I'm also confused about the prospects of whatever snow or ice that's
within nearby space, as to how such an essential raw element would have
managed to exist/coexist, for how long and at what likely sorts of
density are we talking about.

I'm also confused about our somewhat radioactive moon that's also a
little more than just somewhat reactive, as to how humans can manage to
safely coexist anywhere near the solar illuminated side of that nasty
sucker.

I'm also confused about the surface-tension of moon-dust, as to how it
can become much greater than 5 g/cm2 (if that much) and as to why there
shouldn't otherwise be 10+meter deep portions of that composite dust in
places.

It seems of the local bedrock that's supposedly in the realm of being
worth 3.35 g/cm3 as having been compacted at 1.623 m/s/s isn't all that
likely to exceed 5.437 g/cm2, that is unless there's a touch of
something that's binding and/or otherwise compressing upon such a
dry-quicksand worth of moon dirt. If we're talking about the arriving
sorts of pumice and/or the sorts of solar/cosmic contributed dust
that's of even less density/cm3 (such as carbon/soot), how the heck
could that substance possibly amount to even a surface-tension of 5
g/cm2?

As to my LSE was simply proposed in retrospect/revenge as to countering
the absolute ESE/Liftport fiasco that has been publicly funded and thus
at least indirectly supported by status quo folks exactly like
yourself.
Are you saying that this kind of fiber can theoretically support itself
vertically in the gravitational field of the earth no matter how long it
is?
YES indeed because, at 2r (1738 km off the lunar deck) we're only
talking about 0.04166 G and, do trust me on this one, it only gets
better off the further away one exits from the moon, and especially if
the direction you're going is directly aligned towards mother Earth.

I suppose if one wants to seriously nitpick this concept to death,
what's needed is a km by km 3 body equation of a software program which
can then establish upon the exact tether requirements each and every km
step of the way, then tossing in the solar element as the 4th body
tease for good measure and obviously taking into account the
interactive aspects of the well known variables as pertaining to the
Earth/Moon orbital distance considerations that makes life and
certainly any LSE R&D quite interesting but certainly not
insurmountable.

It just so happens, at least long before I came along with my having
discovered that other life as having been upon Venus and subsequently
having learn as to why that was entirely possible, there have been more
than a sufficient number of formal notions and serious proposals of
establishing the likes of a Lunavator, Rotovators and of Electrodynamic
Tethers as having been technically doable within the available GPa of
existing products. Of course, up against the typically intellectual
incest form of mainstream applied conditional physics and evidence
exclusions resolves such matters into their not even existing, just
like all of their LLPOF perpetrated cold-wars and so forth is exactly
playing fair.

Even the ESE/SSTT (Earth Space Elevator/Liftport Tethers) R&D has
recently been suggesting that as little as having a 35 GPa as a tapered
format of tether could be sufficient for their initial ESE/Liftport
application. Thus my imposed estimates of having merely divided that by
a factor of 36:1 for the lunar space elevator is what gets that very
same tapered tether as applied down to as little as one GPa on behalf
of the LSE, although with having to take on viable payloads and with
reserve capacity is where the 3+GPa seems perfectly fine and dandy.

Even at eventually establishing my 50e6t CM(counter mass) as easily
accommodating the 1e6 m3 ISS abode within at perhaps 64,000 km off the
lunar deck is I believe within sufficient spec because of the extremely
slight amount of Earth gravity plus having a little centrifugal g-force
to work with is what I believe represents exactly what the LSE R&D
doctor ordered as for establishing the necessary tether tensioning,
that plus taking whatever the extended dipole element of a somewhat
interactive 270,000 some odd km worth that's getting its sizable
termination platform/pod of those nifty 100 GW laser cannons to within
50,000 km of mother Earth can manage to accomplish.

Quite frankly, I've been getting more than a little sick and tired of
such all-knowing wizards and brown-nosed spooks (perhaps such as those
you've seen and/or confronted before) as having suggested that the
LSE-CM/ISS isn't entirely doable. Whereas others have long before known
better and, now myself firmly believes that the LSE is being entirely
doable within essentially off-the-shelf specs of what has been
available as of decades.

Even though I've since learned of there being numerous research and
respected authors before I ever so much as realised such existed. As
for an example, here's yet another somewhat updated topic summary
that's offered by Paul Lucas, although this page doesn't specifically
address the LSE configuration that I've had in mind.
Cosmic Rope Tricks: involving the likes of Space Tethers, Rotovators,
Electrodynamic Tethers and Lunavators at 3.25 GPa
http://www.strangehorizons.com/2003/20030414/rope.shtml

Therefore, I have to keep offering onto my dear anti-everything under
the sun friends, and upon their fellow incest cloned brown-nosed borgs
of their suck and blow mainstream status quo cult, that's been hell
bent upon bashing and/or banishment upon whatever I have to say,
whereas in spite of their warm and fuzzy all-knowing pompous and
sanctimonious arrogance from hell, it seems that the standard old and
reliable as well as continuous basalt fibers of 4.84 GPa (certainly
better GPa yet if that were produced upon the moon) are just perfectly
fine and dandy. In other words, these absolute lying *******s that have
for nearly 6 years pretended that they know of absolutely nothing, or
because they somehow can't possibly appreciate nor much less understand
whatever I've been talking about, yet apparently smart enough to be
insisting that there's nothing of truth nor value in whatever I'm
providing, whereas it seem these folks are individually and as a
perverted Skull and Bones collective nothing but clearly sucking and
blowing as brown-nosed Third Reich retards at the same time because,
without question the LSE-CM/ISS has been a challange that's technically
a done deal that just rocks their pathetic good ship LOLLIPOP something
terrible, that plus rocking their entire fleet of mainstream boats as
per having to take a few other nasty waves as derived from my icy
proto-moon, other life as having been coexisting upon Venus and,
there's always my notions of boat rocking notions as to what the nearby
Sirius star system has to do with much of what long-term cycles our
environment and even impacts much of the life upon Earth.

Their incessant focus upon playing word games, syntax and math games,
and of their taking whatever cloak and dagger actions and/or
orchestrated inactions, applying MOS disinformation plus excluding
whatever evidence rocks their boat and thereby, of our having to
continually deal with their collateral damage as having been created
from so much of their media dog-wagging and infomercials as having been
necessary per supporting their grand ruse/sting of their extremely
brown-nosed and bloody as well spendy as hell century is absolutely
appalling, rude and certainly downright dishonest to their very Godless
soul that obviously hasn't a speck of remorse going along with any of
it. As such, they've made myself and humanity sick to the very bone.

I'm terribly sorry George; did my closing rant somehow manage to leave
out a few superlatives upon my describing what I personally think of
certain folks?

Many parts of the moon mission are in place and working already.
That's odd, because I know of nothing of hard-science that's been
interactive from the lunar surface, and SMART-1 has certainly been a
joke, thus what parts are you talking about?
~

Life upon Venus, a township w/Bridge & ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
War is war, thus "in war there are no rules" - In fact, war has been
the very reason of having to deal with the likes of others that haven't
been playing by whatever rules, such as GW Bush.




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It's relatively clumping moon-dirt cheap/kg to robotically deliver beer
and pizza to the moon, however keeping those deliveries from vaporising
upon impact needs a little R&D.

Fortunately, there's always been enough of an atmosphere to utilize
extremely large parachutes.

However, soon the Russians or Chinese will be able to lower tonnes at a
time from the safety and secutity of their LSE-CM/ISS, eventually 100+
tonnes at a time with nothing more than a pod that'll ride efficiently
any one of the LSE tethers to the surface.

BTW; basalt sodium is less than 3.5%, whereas sal****er/seawater is
typically 30+%, and there's certainly lots of nifty stuff that grows
just fine and dandy at 30+% sodium.

Raw as nearly pure terrestrial an/or lunar basalt of 3.1 g/cm3 (as
having been processed into a basalt fiber density = 2.7~2.75 g/cm3),
contains little if any carbon, but offers these primary elements:
SiO2 58.7
Al2O3 17.2
Fe2O3 10.3
MgO 3.82
CaO 8.04
Na2O 3.34
K2O 0.82
TiO2 1.16
P2O5 0.28
MnO 0.16
Cr2O3 0.06
~

Life upon Venus, a township w/Bridge & ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
War is war, thus "in war there are no rules" - In fact, war has been
the very reason of having to deal with the likes of others that haven't
been playing by whatever rules, such as GW Bush.

elevator to the moon.

The solution is quite simple really.

Build a large hoola-hoop in LEO. From there, you string a long cable to
the moon anchored to the hoolahoop with some wheels, letting it go
around the hoolahoop to match the rotation of moon around earth. Then,
you string another cable from the hoolahoop (also on rollers) going to
surface of earth.


So to get to the moon, you first go up to "hoolahoop" level and wait for
the cable to the moon to get near where you are and then grap onto it
and climb to the moon.

This would give the possibility of many elevators from earth to the
hoolahoop from different countries. In fact, with enough earth-hoolahoop
links, it would make for an extremely strong structure, akin to how a
bicycle rim is held by spokes to a hub. And thsy may also have to put up
some flags along the spokes, a bit like kids do to their wheels, in
order to ensure no commercial aircraft bumps into a spoke while flying.


This concept has potential for the future as well. The same hoolahoop
could also act as an anchor point for a rope going to Mars. (this rope
would have to be very elestic though since Mars's orbit has *slight*
variations in distance from the earth, and the elastic would have to be
fireproof since there are times where the most direct path between earth
and Mars would take it right through the sun).

(Not sure how much royalties NASA would have to pay Hasbro for the
rights to the "hoolahoop" concept.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:34:36 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:

George Evans wrote:

NASA uses the phrase "living off the land." That would suggest a decrease in
the need for supply missions.

You still need food and water; you might find water at the poles, but I
wouldn't count on it.
The food means growing things, and that means turning Moon soil into
fertile soil...and I don't know what its fertility is minus any added
minerals.

IIRC, moon rock returned by Apollo was found to make fertile soil, but
had too much of certain elements like sodium to use as is.

-- Roy L

in article , Rand Simberg at
h wrote on 9/28/05 8:38 PM:

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:19:44 GMT, in a place far, far away, George
Evans made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

You can't "own" a Langrange point (for one thing, they're not
"points"--there's plenty of room up there).

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a Lagrange point indeed a single point at
any given time even though geometrically it might move around slightly
relative to the orbiting body?

You're wrong.

A Lagrange point in the earth-moon system is a vicinity, due to the
complications of the Sun, Venus, Jupiter, and other gravitational influences.

But, cannot each one of those distant bodies be considered a point. The only
factor I can think of that would turn a Lagrange point into a Lagrange
vicinity is uncertainty about mass distribution in the two nearby objects.

I am not trying to be unreasonable. I am thinking a point is something say
within a mile of the theoretical point. The way you talk about Lagrange
points--saying there is plenty of room for multiple vehicles--I am assuming
by a vicinity you mean something much larger than a cubic mile. I think you
would agree that multiple vehicles should not be stationed within a mile of
each other.

Given those parameters, I think a Lagrange *point* can be calculated and
navigated to, in this day and age.

George Evans

in article , Josh Hill at
wrote on 9/28/05 6:34 PM:

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:46:52 GMT, George Evans
wrote:

in article , Josh Hill at
wrote on 9/28/05 5:49 AM:

snip

What I see there is vagueness:

"With a minimum of two lunar missions per year, momentum will build quickly
toward a permanent outpost. Crews will stay longer and learn to exploit the
moon's resources, while landers make one way trips to deliver cargo.
Eventually, the new system could rotate crews to and from a lunar outpost
every six months."

Too many "coulds" for my taste, particulary since if Apollo and ISS are a
guide, and I think they are, the public and the politicians will rapidly
lose interest.

You are just one of these NASA is half empty kind of guys, aren't you? I just
reread the page to make sure I hadn't misunderstood. There are dozens of
"will's" and "are going to's" but only two "could's". I can see why you
didn't use the other "could", which says, "Once a lunar outpost is
established, crews could remain on the lunar surface for up to six months."
If you had used this quote in which the uncertainty is in length of stay and
not about it happening in the first place, it would have explained the one
you did quote. Correctly understood, in context, your statement means that
stays at the outpost will start shorter and build to six months.

If you are honest you will have to admit that NASA is at least talking
positively. You can still say they're lying of course.

I don't know what a "NASA half empty" guy is.

"Once a lunar outpost is established, crews could remain on the lunar surface
for up to six months" is, well, ungrammatical, and reading it is a bit like
reading tea leaves. I don't know that a web page can be read like a
carefully-drafted policy statement, but had they wanted to express a solid
plan, they could have said ""Once a lunar outpost is established, crews will
be able to remain on the lunar surface for up to six months" or something of
the sort.

How is the phrase "will be able to" different from the word "could" in this
context? It seems you are being extremely picky.

George Evans

Lynndel K. Humphreys;
Does an elevator have an incredibly long cable system that reaches the moon?
Actually it's the other way around. However, no matters what it still
doesn't reach from one to the other unless you're asking for real
serious trouble in RIVER City, as in having teravolts arcing from the
moon attached cable off the other end that's getting anywhere near
Earth.

From the surface of the moon (call it the elevator pit or lobby, or
perhaps the tether underground anchor/foundation), a composite tether
or perhaps a set of such tethers heads directly towards mother Earth,
however stopping at roughly 64,000 km above the surface of the moon
where these tethers enter and attach to the massive borg-like 50e6t
sphere that's essentially acting as a rather considerable CM(counter
mass) and otherwise accommodating a fairly large/spacious ISS abode of
perhaps 1e6 m3 within.

Now you're roughly a little less than 17% of the way towards Earth,
safely away from the terribly reactive moon and quite safely surrounded
by a great deal of mass, but otherwise at nearly absolute zero G.

Your final return to Earth leg has two basic options.

Option (a); from this point on you can either thumb a ride upon a
passing spacecraft or merely park your butt into a mostly
basalt/JB-WELD composite "return to sender" pod and push the button
that says "Earth". With as slight of effort as you'd care to apply is
going to get this pod headed for Earth, although a good ten second TJ
magnetic impulse should make the return trip happen in a whole lot less
time and probably clear your sinuses as well.

Option (b); is to merely change pods within the CM/ISS, getting
yourself situated into the tether metro bus that's associated with the
270,000 km tether dipole element, as that'll get you to within 50,000
km of Earth (possibly within 25,000 km if you like to live a bit more
on the edge), although you simply can't stay there for very long
without getting all of your DNA/RNA totally TBI to death. Thus having
to promptly exit away from the tether dipole termination platform in a
fairly conventional reentry capsule becomes the last leg of your return
trip to Earth, whereas upon landing is where if need be the banked bone
marrow that you'd cashed away before going to the moon can be
re-injected into your dying body that got perhaps exposed to greater
than a hundred rads(1+Sv) somewhere along the line.

BTW; at 10+Sv you don't even have to bother coming home, thus you
and/or your family should save big time by only requiring a one-way
ticket to ride. Whereas the return ticket can go directly into eBay for
auction and, or as yet another sub-option, as long as you're logged
into your eBay account, you might even be able to auction off a few of
your body parts that you're not going to have much need of since
they've become so nicely sterilized, thus ideal for certain
transplants, thus either way it's a win-win for the family fortune.

Just kidding folks, as having more than sufficient shielding and of
otherwise spending only earthshine time upon the moon unless working
underground and/or safely within the CM/ISS should keep the worse
possible case TBI dosage below 50 rads, with 5 rads being the typical
month tour of duty unless the sun decides to spit some of that nasty
2400 km/s stuff your way.

Basically, once within the Van Allen zone of death, the faster you can
manage to get yourself through them badlands the better.
~

Life upon Venus, a township w/Bridge & ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
War is war, thus "in war there are no rules" - In fact, war has been
the very reason of having to deal with the likes of others that haven't
been playing by whatever rules, such as GW Bush.

360. r;
IIRC, moon rock returned by Apollo was found to make fertile soil, but
had too much of certain elements like sodium to use as is.
First of all, there's megatonnes worth of perfectly good moon-rocks
upon Earth. Where otherwise would all of those horrific impact shards
have migrated to?

Secondly; it's relatively moon-dirt (apparently clumping none the less)
cheap/kg to robotically deliver the likes of beer and pizza to the
moon, however keeping those deliveries from vaporising upon impact
needs a little R&D polish.

Fortunately, there's always been enough of an atmosphere to utilize
extremely large parachutes. Perhaps a 1000 m2 per m3 of water delivery
if it wewe well enough packaged and or in a solid form (perhaps as
having been surrounded by a layer of dry-ice) that could at least
somewhat survive the fairly high velocity arrival.

However, soon the Russians or Chinese will be able to lower lots of
tonnage at a time from the safety and security of their LSE-CM/ISS,
eventually 100+ tonnes at a time (one of those every hour right after
the other) with nothing more than a locally fabricated basalt composite
fabricated pod that'll ride efficiently upon any one of the LSE tethers
to/from the surface.

After all, we're only talking about a 64,000 km run that's 100%
robotic.

BTW; basalt sodium is less than 3.5%, whereas sal****er/seawater is
typically 30+%, and there's certainly lots of nifty stuff that grows
just fine and dandy at 30+% sodium.

Seawater can become a little as 1% O2 saturated to that of slightly
better off than 10% with the average near surface supporting 5+% O2
(gets another percent or so better off just a few meters below the
surface). Ocean dead zones (besides depth related factors or their
getting chemically and/or biologically polluted to death) are also
becoming those of dead-zones a typically offering less than 1% O2 and,
fortunately for the jellyfish populations that have darn few predators
nor all that much human nutritional appeal seem to thrive within such
zones of low O2 saturation, and thanks primarily to us humans as having
been getting their wish of not only much larger habitat areas but, lots
MOS ocean dead zones within which to thrive.

Thus an underground/sequestered pond of a salty moon-lake or geode
pocket along with some artificially piped in photons of 350~450 nm
should do quite nicely if having something better than 1% O2 saturation
to work with. Add and then allow few billion diatoms/m3 and that O2
saturation should easily exceed 10% if not better than 25% at 0.1 bar.
Otherwise, at least moon jellyfish should like it even if there's
hardly enough pressure for keeping that sort of environment from
vaporising. Therefore 0.1 bar (1.47 psi) should more than do that trick
unless it gets too damn hot, of which being sufficiently underground
should keep that water (especially salty water) from boiling or
freezing solid.

Raw basalt fibers of 4.84 GPa as easily extracted from nearly pure
terrestrial and/or of lunar basalt of perhaps 3.1 g/cm3 (as having been
processed into a fiber density of 2.7~2.75 g/cm3), contains little if
any carbon, but still offers these primary elements:
SiO2 58.7
Al2O3 17.2
Fe2O3 10.3
MgO 3.82
CaO 8.04
Na2O 3.34
K2O 0.82
TiO2 1.16
P2O5 0.28
MnO 0.16
Cr2O3 0.06
~

Life upon Venus, a township w/Bridge & ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
War is war, thus "in war there are no rules" - In fact, war has been
the very reason of having to deal with the likes of others that haven't
been playing by whatever rules, such as GW Bush.

Roy L;
IIRC, moon rock returned by Apollo was found to make fertile soil, but
had too much of certain elements like sodium to use as is.
Sorry about all the reply updates and additions (it's the best I can do
under pressure).
First of all, there's megatonnes worth of perfectly good moon-rocks as
samples upon Earth. Where otherwise would all of those horrific meteor
impact shards have migrated to?

Secondly; it's relatively moon-dirt cheap (apparently clumping dirt
cheap none the less) per kg of robotically delivering the likes of beer
and pizza to the moon, however keeping those deliveries from vaporising
upon impact needs a little fly-by-rocket R&D polish.

Fortunately, there's always been enough of an atmosphere (starting off
with the upper most worth of what's mostly comprised of sodium, at 18r
being at times sunnyside-up worth better than 100 atoms/cm3 and
arriving near the surface with something better than 1e9 atoms/cm3 that
should include the likes of radon(Ra-222) as to utilize such extremely
large parachutes to their fullest advantage. Perhaps a chute opening of
1000 m2 per m3 of water delivery if it were well enough packaged and or
in a solid form (perhaps as having been surrounded by a layer of
tightly compacted dry-ice) that could at least somewhat survive the
fairly high velocity arrival. Within that ball of ice could be the
frozen pizzas and of course another keg of beer.

However, soon the Russians or Chinese will be able to lower lots of
tonnage at a time from the safety and security of their LSE-CM/ISS,
eventually 100+ tonnes at a time (perhaps one of those every hour, as
in a tethered caravan of one pod right after the other) within nothing
more than a locally fabricated basalt/JB-WELD composite fabricated pod
that'll ride efficiently upon any one of the LSE tethers to/from the
surface and that of their CM/ISS (borg like sphere or just "pie in the
sky").

After all, we're only talking about a 64,000 km run that's 100%
robotic. At an average trek of 6.4 km/s = 2.78 hours from top to
bottom.

BTW; basalt sodium is less than 3.5%, whereas sal****er/seawater is
typically 30+%, and there's certainly lots of nifty stuff that grows
just fine and dandy at 30+% sodium.

Terrestrial seawater can become a little as 1% O2 saturated to that of
slightly better off than 10% with the average near surface supporting
5+% O2 (gets another percent or so better off just a few meters below
the surface). Ocean dead zones (besides depth related factors or their
getting chemically and/or biologically polluted to death) are also
becoming those of dead-zones a typically offering less than 1% O2 and,
fortunately for the jellyfish populations that have darn few predators
nor all that much human nutritional appeal seem to thrive within such
zones of low O2 saturation, and thanks primarily to us humans as having
been getting their wish of not only much larger habitat areas but, lots
MOS ocean dead zones within which to thrive.

Thus an underground/sequestered pond of a salty moon-lake or geode
pocket pool(s), along with some artificially piped in photons of
350~450 nm should do quite nicely if starting off by having something
better than 1% O2 saturation to work with. Add microbes and then allow
a billion diatoms/m3 to coexist and I believe that O2 saturation should
easily exceed 10% if not better than 25% at 0.1 bar. Otherwise, at
least moon jellyfish should like it even if there's hardly enough
saturated O2 or pressure for keeping that sort of environment from
vaporising. Therefore 0.1 bar (1.47 psi) should more than do that trick
unless it gets too damn hot, of which being sufficiently underground
should keep that water (especially salty water of which the moon should
already have a wee bit left over from when it was once upon a time an
icy proto-moon of 4000 km) from boiling or freezing solid.

Raw basalt fibers of 4.84 GPa as easily extracted from nearly pure
terrestrial and/or of lunar basalt of perhaps 3.1 g/cm3 (as having been
processed into a fiber density of 2.7~2.75 g/cm3), contains little if
any carbon, but still offers these primary elements:
SiO2 58.7
Al2O3 17.2
Fe2O3 10.3
MgO 3.82
CaO 8.04
Na2O 3.34
K2O 0.82
TiO2 1.16
P2O5 0.28
MnO 0.16
Cr2O3 0.06
~

Life upon Venus, a township w/Bridge & ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
War is war, thus "in war there are no rules" - In fact, war has been
the very reason of having to deal with the likes of others that haven't
been playing by whatever rules, such as GW Bush.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:45:51 GMT, George Evans
wrote:

in article , Josh Hill at
wrote on 9/28/05 6:34 PM:

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:46:52 GMT, George Evans
wrote:

in article , Josh Hill at
wrote on 9/28/05 5:49 AM:

snip

What I see there is vagueness:

"With a minimum of two lunar missions per year, momentum will build quickly
toward a permanent outpost. Crews will stay longer and learn to exploit the
moon's resources, while landers make one way trips to deliver cargo.
Eventually, the new system could rotate crews to and from a lunar outpost
every six months."

Too many "coulds" for my taste, particulary since if Apollo and ISS are a
guide, and I think they are, the public and the politicians will rapidly
lose interest.

You are just one of these NASA is half empty kind of guys, aren't you? I just
reread the page to make sure I hadn't misunderstood. There are dozens of
"will's" and "are going to's" but only two "could's". I can see why you
didn't use the other "could", which says, "Once a lunar outpost is
established, crews could remain on the lunar surface for up to six months."
If you had used this quote in which the uncertainty is in length of stay and
not about it happening in the first place, it would have explained the one
you did quote. Correctly understood, in context, your statement means that
stays at the outpost will start shorter and build to six months.

If you are honest you will have to admit that NASA is at least talking
positively. You can still say they're lying of course.

I don't know what a "NASA half empty" guy is.

"Once a lunar outpost is established, crews could remain on the lunar surface
for up to six months" is, well, ungrammatical, and reading it is a bit like
reading tea leaves. I don't know that a web page can be read like a
carefully-drafted policy statement, but had they wanted to express a solid
plan, they could have said ""Once a lunar outpost is established, crews will
be able to remain on the lunar surface for up to six months" or something of
the sort.

How is the phrase "will be able to" different from the word "could" in this
context? It seems you are being extremely picky.

The former establishes a capability, and, by extension, intent. The
latter suggests a possibility. I can't say with certainty what they
mean because as I said the statement seems to be ungrammatical, and
it's just a web page. But I have the sense that they're avoiding any
kind of solid commitment. After all, if they planned to establish a
permanent moon base rather than just leaving it open as a possibility,
they'd presumably want to brag about it.

--
Josh

"This is a devastating storm. This is a storm that's
going to require immediate action now." -George W. Bush,
four days after Hurricane Katrina