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Running multiple HET in parallel?



 
 
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  #81  
Old April 8th 05, 07:51 PM
John Schilling
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In article . net, Carey
Sublette says...


wrote in message
oups.com...


[Arbitrary food selection for astronauts]

As their employer and outfitter, we have that responsibility.
Is that clear enough?


When the time comes that explorers of Mars can be self-employed, fine,
but until then...


There is a more hard-headed answer: the astronaut has agreed to serve as an
agent of exploration for the space program and some billions of dollars are
being invested per astronaut to carry out the exploration mission. The space
program will do everything possible to ensure that the astronaut will remain
capable of carrying out his/her duties to protect the mission (and
investment), and the astronaut will be *required* to comply with a dietary
program that space program nutritionists and psychologists believe will
ensure their continued ability to perform their duties.


That way, when it turns out that they are unable to perform their duties,
we can say, "See, it's *their fault*, because they *didn't follow the
requirements*", and absolve ourselves of blame.

This is indeed quite important to a lot of people, but some of us are more
interested in whether or not the astronauts can actually perform their duties.
In which case the relevant issue is what they *actually* do, not what they are
*required* to do.

Which are two different things, even for highly motivated people who agree to
the requirements.

You seem to be missing the point here. We know how to freeze or dehydrate
carbohydrates, proteins, fats, vitamins, and minerals sufficient to provide
a nutricious diet. But, food which is not eaten, provides no nutrition, no
matter what its chemical composition. Food which is eaten but not digested,
provides no nutrition, no matter what its chemical composition.

And there is empirical evidence that, even for highly motivated people who
agree to the conditions, the sorts of food most amenable to long-term
storage are the sorts of food least likely to be actually eaten, least
likely to be properly digested if they are eaten, exlusively over a period
of years. To the point of actual malnutrition or undernutrition of people
amply supplied with nutritious food.

There is *also* empirical evidence that, even for highly motivated people
who agree to the conditions, food which was chosen for them by others is
less likely to be eaten and properly digested than food which they chose
for themselves. Again, to the point of actual malnutrition or undernutrition
of people amply supplied with nutritious food.

The first is an intrinsic problem with long-duration spaceflight. Almost
certainly a problem that can be solved with relatively little effort, but
it makes things *harder* if we force the second problem into the proposed
solution of the first.


Fortunately, the nutritionists and psychologists already know this, and if
you ask them in general terms how best to deal with the issue will suggest
leaving most of the decisions to the people who are actually going to be
eating the stuff (or not). Unfortunately, there is a human instinct against
sharing power, so if not knowing any better you outright instruct the
nutritionists and psychologists to specify the diets of the astronauts, they
may not bother to correct you.


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
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*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *

  #82  
Old April 8th 05, 07:58 PM
snidely
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As their employer and outfitter, we have that responsibility.
Is that clear enough?



It's an argument by assertion. Clear, but completely unconvincing.


So you aren't convinced that your empoyer is responsible for providing
a safe stairway in the mutlit-story building he has you work in?

/dps

  #83  
Old April 9th 05, 03:33 PM
Carey Sublette
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"Craig Fink" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:41:12 +0000, Carey Sublette wrote:



I think the "cherry box" on the viewgraph: " Improvements in food
storage technology or production technology are also needed to reduce
overall mass and ensure crew health." states the issue accurate, but the
other sentence on the slide:
"Current food preservation technology is not capable of providing
nutritionally viable food for the longer mission durations under study"
is a bit of a misstatement.

Ensuring crew health requires a diet that is varied and palatable so
that the crew eats properly, and the food itself is not a source of
stress on the mission (psychological health).

And the trick is to do it with low mass foods (i.e. dehydrated).

Also, nutrition science is far beyond the RDA stage - finding the
essential individual components in a diet required for health. We all
know about the debates about what makes an *optimum* healthy diets: What
kind of fats and in what proportion? How much and what kind of fiber?
How much flavonoids and carotenoids, and what kinds, with what ratios?
Etc.

I think it is the combined problem of satisfying all of these together,
and quite clearly no one has ever developed a food system like this
before.

The whole viewgraph presentation is about design trade-offs, and the
dietary aspect of a mission is going to involve trade-offs of its own.
For a palatable, optimally healthy, indefinitely storable diet a
solution is at hand right now - just prepare thousands of excellent
meals and freeze them in ready-to-eat form. But this is quite heavy with
all that water. Maintaining the good qualities of those meals but
getting rid of the water mass, not so easy.




I've always thought a garden is the way to go. Lots of ......

When I went sailing a while back, it was the fresh stuff I missed most.
The crunch of a nice salad, squish of a fresh tomatoes, that type of
thing. The lettuce we had after two or three weeks (with no refrigeration)
was great, even though I had to peel off the outer centimeter or so of
scum.

That and human converstion, but that won't be a problem with the going to
Mars. Or, will it?????????


This is the one area where no food preservation technology exists: fresh
salads of tomatoes and leafy vegetables.

These are all high water content plants that don't dehydrate, and don't
freeze - doing anything at all to them beyond keeping them fresh turns them
into mush. Some of these ingredients are still good in mush form (think
tomato sauce and sauerkraut) but they aren't fresh (and lettuce fails
utterly - though I do have a book with a New Zealand recipe for baked
lettuce!). You can freeze salads of some of the more carbohydrate rich,
lower water vegetables - but they aren't what most people think of as
"salad".

It might be worthwhile to have a hydroponic unit on a Mars misson to produce
fresh leafy vaegetables and tomatoes for an occasional delicacy, it could
also provide a "garden spot" for the crew.

Carey Sublette

  #84  
Old April 12th 05, 05:53 AM
Derek Lyons
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"Carey Sublette" wrote:

You haven't actually tried the "high-end supermarket" shopping bit have you?


Yes, I have. And you'll find the frozen 'gourmet' foods in them are
largely targeted at a slightly different audience than the fresh
products in the same store. You see the same differentiation even at
a low- or mid- end supermarket.

(Just two weeks ago I was in a high end grocery/restaurant supply
store. Their frozen section was barely as big as that at my local
7-11, and was mostly devoted to ice cream and frozen yogurt. A
telling point.)

The point is modern freezing technology works very well. The fact that it
can be stored badly, and defrosted using poor techniques says nothing at
all.


Ah. The operation was a success, but the patient died.

The point is, modern freezing technology isn't magical. There are
severe compromises in texture and quality. (Especially in mass
production.)

Frozen foods are often better in nutrition and not infrequently
in esthetic qualities compared to "real world" fresh, because shipping,
handling, and storage allow for more deterioration for the "fresh".


If it's deteriorated, it's not fresh Carey.


Derek, this is very amusing.

You believe food does not begin deteriorating from the moment it is
harvested (picked/slaughtered) or prepared?


Did I say that? No.

But the normal degradation of product in shipping and handling isn't
considered 'deterioration'. Deterioration means damage or
putrefecation to the cook.

Refrigeration (and other storage techniques, like CO2 atmospheres) retards
deterioration, keeping it to acceptable levels for reasonable periods of
time. Every bit of "fresh" food you buy has deteriorated in measurable ways
from its point of origin. Even if food science isn't your bag (and I'd say,
it isn't), basic biology and chemistry should clue you in on this.


I do know food science. But I don't confuse food scientists with
cooks. Food science is to cooking like a pulp mill is to fine
woodowrking.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #85  
Old April 12th 05, 06:03 AM
Derek Lyons
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"Carey Sublette" wrote:


"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Carey Sublette" wrote:
There is a very substantial, and growing, frozen gourmet food industry. A
little googling, or a trip to a high-end supermarket, easily turns up an
vast range of products.


It turns up what seems to be a vast range. In reality, you find it's
a fairly narrow range with a bunch of different producers for each
article.


Check out:
http://www.hvk.org/hvk/articles/0403/235.html

This is a New York Times account of the frozen foods available from just one
company for one particular (small) segment of the frozen food market -
ethnic Indian cuisine in the U.S..


Oddly enough, the article focuses most of it's attention on the snack
foods.

The frozen foods available for this one market segment runs at least into the
hundreds of products (go to nice store in an Indian community in the U.S. to check
it out).


It's like the Asian, Hispanic, etc.. markets I've been in, the
situation is just like that down at my local Safeway; the range of
products is actually fairly narrow. The sheer bulk looks impressive
until you realize there are 12 different manufacturers of Lasagna, 14
different for Salisbury Steaks, etc.

Similar articles can easily be run about other ethnic markets - Latino/Hispanic,
Chinese and other East Asian (actually several separate markets), etc.; as well
as other vegetarian foods, etc.


And these ethnic market segments aren't narrow? In every single
ethnic market I've ever visited (dozens, including a couple of higher
end Oriental markets), the amount of fresh product outweighs the
frozen by at least 2-1.

Having someone argue that the available high quality frozen food products is
a "fairly narrow range" is a bit like encountering someone who asserts that
the automobile has yet to really seriously challenge the horse and carriage.


No, it's like encountering someone who can see the forest for the
trees.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
 




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