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NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 10th 18, 09:45 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris.B[_3_]
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Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?

On Saturday, 10 February 2018 02:34:20 UTC+1, RichA wrote:
On Friday, 9 February 2018 19:32:52 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:31:13 -0800 (PST), RichA
wrote:

On Friday, 9 February 2018 09:33:45 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:37:05 -0800 (PST), "Scott M. Kozel"
wrote:

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 4:44:37 PM UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 13:37:37 -0800 (PST), RichA
wrote:

1M miles from Earth. Think Musk's cheesy rockets will be able to ferry people out to its solar orbit point to fix it? No, forget it. Musk's rocket would likely disintegrate upon return to Earth because the re-entry from a "left orbit" attitude is much more difficult and vehicle-stressing than coming down FROM orbit.
So, for the foreseeable future, the Webb must work, or it's an orbiting hulk, a far worse predicament than was faced by Hubble.

It's an engineering tradeoff. Do you use a low orbit to allow
servicing, at the expense of a great deal of utility (as with HST), or
do you put it much higher, where it can do better science, but can't
be serviced?

Of course, there was never a need to service the HST. Entire
replacements could have been launched for less than the cost of the
servicing missions.

And if they used the shuttle to launch the replacement they could have
brought the old one back if they felt that was important.

Yeah, but the shuttle was a boondoggle from day one. Largely
unnecessary, and vastly more expensive than alternatives.

Who cared if it cost more? Nothing they have now (well, they really don't have anything, hence the Russian ferry service) is remotely as flexible.


We don't appear to have much need for the things the Shuttle was
capable of. It was designed to build the ISS, which is something else
we never really needed, and which sucked money out of the most
important things NASA does: monitoring the Earth, operating space
telescopes, and conducting robotic investigations of other bodies in
the Solar System.


Don't agree about the Shuttle, agree about ISS, it's a travesty.


If there wasn't a space station you'd have to invent one.
  #2  
Old February 10th 18, 10:48 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
RichA[_6_]
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Posts: 1,076
Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?

On Saturday, 10 February 2018 03:45:41 UTC-5, Chris.B wrote:
On Saturday, 10 February 2018 02:34:20 UTC+1, RichA wrote:
On Friday, 9 February 2018 19:32:52 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:31:13 -0800 (PST), RichA
wrote:

On Friday, 9 February 2018 09:33:45 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:37:05 -0800 (PST), "Scott M. Kozel"
wrote:

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 4:44:37 PM UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 13:37:37 -0800 (PST), RichA
wrote:

1M miles from Earth. Think Musk's cheesy rockets will be able to ferry people out to its solar orbit point to fix it? No, forget it. Musk's rocket would likely disintegrate upon return to Earth because the re-entry from a "left orbit" attitude is much more difficult and vehicle-stressing than coming down FROM orbit.
So, for the foreseeable future, the Webb must work, or it's an orbiting hulk, a far worse predicament than was faced by Hubble.

It's an engineering tradeoff. Do you use a low orbit to allow
servicing, at the expense of a great deal of utility (as with HST), or
do you put it much higher, where it can do better science, but can't
be serviced?

Of course, there was never a need to service the HST. Entire
replacements could have been launched for less than the cost of the
servicing missions.

And if they used the shuttle to launch the replacement they could have
brought the old one back if they felt that was important.

Yeah, but the shuttle was a boondoggle from day one. Largely
unnecessary, and vastly more expensive than alternatives.

Who cared if it cost more? Nothing they have now (well, they really don't have anything, hence the Russian ferry service) is remotely as flexible.

We don't appear to have much need for the things the Shuttle was
capable of. It was designed to build the ISS, which is something else
we never really needed, and which sucked money out of the most
important things NASA does: monitoring the Earth, operating space
telescopes, and conducting robotic investigations of other bodies in
the Solar System.


Don't agree about the Shuttle, agree about ISS, it's a travesty.


If there wasn't a space station you'd have to invent one.


They did invent it though. A $180B make-work project originated in the days during the Soviet collapse. No one was getting paid, scientists, formerly employed in HUGE state-run companies were turfed out. So, to keep them from running off and building nukes for slavering radical Muslims, the U.S. invented the ISS to keep them occupied. The Shuttle flights to build it ran about $50 billion.
  #3  
Old February 11th 18, 07:30 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris.B[_3_]
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Posts: 1,001
Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?

On Saturday, 10 February 2018 22:48:52 UTC+1, RichA wrote:
They did invent it though. A $180B make-work project originated in the days during the Soviet collapse. No one was getting paid, scientists, formerly employed in HUGE state-run companies were turfed out. So, to keep them from running off and building nukes for slavering radical Muslims, the U.S.. invented the ISS to keep them occupied. The Shuttle flights to build it ran about $50 billion.


Pocket change for educating and maintaining a generation, or many more, of clever blacksmiths. There is no good lesson without sufficient reward to outweigh the cost. The rewards are always measured in compound interest.

In China and Russia, or India, if the builder still has ten digits remaining it was a good day. The parasitism of the party, despot or oligarch is a heavy chain on progress. One which must be paid for in negativity and massive loss of earnings which cripples all hope of potential while they still live. Every despot, throughout history, will always settle for a larger share of a very much smaller chamber pot. "He knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

Give me one open, creative mind rather than ten million slaves to dogma. Any society which filters its citizens by connection or wealth is already onto a loser. He who builds or maintains a private school for the wealthy alone should be hanged for treason against all his nation's possible futures.

The only possible grounds for selection is ability built on an equal share of educated potential from birth. Maximizing human creativity is the only real goal. Not for the ragged, bloodstained flag, but for all of humanity. How else will we escape our corrupt leaders and despots?

The 'churches' never went to the Moon but were brilliant at inventing weapons of torture. They had millennia to evolve but repeatedly chose blind ignorance, secrecy, obscene wealth and the vilest corruption of their flocks of parentally brainwashed sheep.

This may [eventually] be one of the most important lessons for humanity. But at what cost before the rewards for humanity can be measured in compound interest out there, between the distant stars? ;-)
  #4  
Old February 12th 18, 06:36 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
RichA[_6_]
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Posts: 1,076
Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?

On Sunday, 11 February 2018 13:30:26 UTC-5, Chris.B wrote:
On Saturday, 10 February 2018 22:48:52 UTC+1, RichA wrote:
They did invent it though. A $180B make-work project originated in the days during the Soviet collapse. No one was getting paid, scientists, formerly employed in HUGE state-run companies were turfed out. So, to keep them from running off and building nukes for slavering radical Muslims, the U..S. invented the ISS to keep them occupied. The Shuttle flights to build it ran about $50 billion.


Pocket change for educating and maintaining a generation, or many more, of clever blacksmiths. There is no good lesson without sufficient reward to outweigh the cost. The rewards are always measured in compound interest.

In China and Russia, or India, if the builder still has ten digits remaining it was a good day. The parasitism of the party, despot or oligarch is a heavy chain on progress. One which must be paid for in negativity and massive loss of earnings which cripples all hope of potential while they still live. Every despot, throughout history, will always settle for a larger share of a very much smaller chamber pot. "He knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

Give me one open, creative mind rather than ten million slaves to dogma. Any society which filters its citizens by connection or wealth is already onto a loser. He who builds or maintains a private school for the wealthy alone should be hanged for treason against all his nation's possible futures.

The only possible grounds for selection is ability built on an equal share of educated potential from birth. Maximizing human creativity is the only real goal. Not for the ragged, bloodstained flag, but for all of humanity. How else will we escape our corrupt leaders and despots?

The 'churches' never went to the Moon but were brilliant at inventing weapons of torture. They had millennia to evolve but repeatedly chose blind ignorance, secrecy, obscene wealth and the vilest corruption of their flocks of parentally brainwashed sheep.

This may [eventually] be one of the most important lessons for humanity. But at what cost before the rewards for humanity can be measured in compound interest out there, between the distant stars? ;-)


The Churches or monks, preserved, and copied important manuscripts during the so-called "Dark Ages" when no one else really did.
  #5  
Old February 12th 18, 07:36 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris.B[_3_]
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Posts: 1,001
Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?

On Monday, 12 February 2018 06:36:20 UTC+1, RichA wrote:

The Churches or monks, preserved, and copied important manuscripts during the so-called "Dark Ages" when no one else really did.


The church hid the details of their own holy book in plain sight. By making it far too expensive to own and handwritten in a dead, foreign language, to all but the truly blessed.[i.e. The filthy Rich] The churches fought modern scientific thought and social equality to the very barricades of drooling idiocy. A more corrupt cult of anti-human progress would be impossible to imagine outside of a dystopian comic book tale. Mass education occurred despite the satanic cults poncing in their golden robes, in their gilded palaces, with their retinues of choir sex toys.

  #6  
Old February 13th 18, 08:04 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:36:20 AM UTC, RichA wrote:


The Churches or monks, preserved, and copied important manuscripts during the so-called "Dark Ages" when no one else really did.


The development of Western civilization follows the development of Christianity up to a point where it splits after the Galileo affair when the Church jettisoned its astronomical heritage. The latent issue where the connection between man and God in spiritual terms meets the individual and Universal in physical terms presented itself and society has been dealing with this ever since.Rather than raise the standard of discussion, the Church shrank away and concentrated on moral issues but subsequently kicked off science vs religion, faith vs myth, truth vs superstition or some variation on that theme that entertains those with strong convictions but little else.

The 'dark ages' is a set up for the 'enlightenment' but this is exceptionally unfair on the development of Western civilization with the latter being just as much a manufactured history as the former. The 'enlightened' are inclined to overstate the differences between Galileo and the Church in cartoon terms even when Galileo pleads his case using a more balanced view as a Catholic and a Christian -

http://inters.org/Galilei-Madame-Christina-Lorraine

The issue as to whether the system of reckoning which predicts astronomical events as times and dates in the calendar framework can also be used to prove the Earth turns and runs a circuit of the Sun is the main issue now as it was then. The solution is found in the partitioning of direct/retrogrades by perspective and that requires the departure from the old geocentric framework, the later RA/Dec framework and a return to the oldest framework there is - the seasonal appearance of stars but this time using a central Sun as a reference.








  #7  
Old February 14th 18, 06:12 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 12:04:57 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
The 'enlightened' are inclined to overstate the differences between Galileo
and the Church in cartoon terms even when Galileo pleads his case using a more
balanced view as a Catholic and a Christian -


Although there is some merit to the point you raise, surely you realize that
Galileo would plead his case in such a way so as not to offend those who were
judging him.

That the whole sad history of the Inquisition leads many to believe that the
First Amendment is the only right way - churches should be private
associations of people sharing certain personal beliefs, not having the
ability to make and enforce laws on everyone else - does not at all seem
unreasonable to me.

Our current task, in the post-9/11 era, is to make this a reality in the
Islamic world so that non-Muslim minorities are protected there.

John Savard
  #8  
Old February 14th 18, 06:37 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrong with the Webb telescope?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:12:00 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
wrote:

That the whole sad history of the Inquisition leads many to believe that the
First Amendment is the only right way - churches should be private
associations of people sharing certain personal beliefs, not having the
ability to make and enforce laws on everyone else - does not at all seem
unreasonable to me.


Nor to be exempt from any secular law, however. There's no difference
between a church and any other club.

Our current task, in the post-9/11 era, is to make this a reality in the
Islamic world so that non-Muslim minorities are protected there.


That will only happen with the loss of theocracies. After all, the
history of Christian brutality far exceeds anything we see in the
Muslim world. What fixed it? Secular government.

You give the religious political control, you're handing everything
over to dogma. And religious or secular, dogma turns into despotism.
  #9  
Old February 14th 18, 07:41 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris.B[_3_]
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Posts: 1,001
Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrongwith the Webb telescope?

On Wednesday, 14 February 2018 06:37:52 UTC+1, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:12:00 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
wrote:

That the whole sad history of the Inquisition leads many to believe that the
First Amendment is the only right way - churches should be private
associations of people sharing certain personal beliefs, not having the
ability to make and enforce laws on everyone else - does not at all seem
unreasonable to me.


Nor to be exempt from any secular law, however. There's no difference
between a church and any other club.

Our current task, in the post-9/11 era, is to make this a reality in the
Islamic world so that non-Muslim minorities are protected there.


That will only happen with the loss of theocracies. After all, the
history of Christian brutality far exceeds anything we see in the
Muslim world. What fixed it? Secular government.

You give the religious political control, you're handing everything
over to dogma. And religious or secular, dogma turns into despotism.


Despotism is the failure to guard against the inadequate being allowed to rule well above their pay grade.
  #10  
Old February 14th 18, 08:09 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Bill[_9_]
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Default NASA's biggest worry right now: What if something goes wrong with the Webb telescope?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 22:41:07 -0800 (PST), Chris.B wrote:

Despotism is the failure to guard against the inadequate being allowed to rule well above their pay grade.


It's what you get when those in power have authority without
reponsibility.

--
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