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Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 6th 04, 08:37 PM
N9WOS
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Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting

Welcome people.
Nice little discussion group you got here.
I found the particular subject listed above by doing a google search.
It struck a subject that I have been thinking about for a while.
So I will post my opinion.
My opinion is a little off topic with the original post,
so I will start a new topic.

Please forgive me if I look like I am trolling.
If you think I am, then please ignore this post.

Warning.. This is only my opinion!
Please don't take offense at it.
Goodness knows, it always seems like someone
takes offence at something.
I am just trying to give an opinion from the other side.

I live in an area that has no laws governing lighting types
or designs.

I live 20 miles from the nearest large city.
That being Bloomington Indiana .
And that large city would be considered a small town
by California standards.
I have lived here all my life, and the only
real neighbors I have is the gray wolves and coyotes.
Their particular mentality is something
you have to get accustomed to.
If you are confronted by a wolf on a path,
there is a few things you do NOT do.

So, in regard to outdoor lighting, I am quite fond of it.
You appreciate it when you are working outside at night,
and there is forest in all directions.

I see where people come from,
that want light pollution to be controlled.

But I have seen some laws in a few states
(like new Mexico) that step over the line.
I am perfectly fine with the idea of pointing the
light to the ground, and not shining any into the sky.
But
They put laws on the type of light source that you can use
in the outdoor lights, not just the type of light fixture you use them in.

I am sorry, but you should be able to use any type
of light in the light fixture you want to.
If you are paying the electric bill.
If I want to use a 1Kw carbon arc that generates
the same amount of light as a 50W incandescent bulb,
So be it.
As long as the light is controlled,
and not shining on other people's property, or the sky.

Just because I drive a car that gets 40M/G, doesn't
mean that I should try to outlaw SUV's that consume more fuel
than a tractor trailer loaded With 40 tons, pulling a hill.
As long as the vehicle meets the DOT regulations,
I have no complaint with what they drive.

I feel that the type of light you use on your property
is the same thing.
As long as I pay the bill, it is no one's business.
One of the things that gets me is they allow HPS and MH,
But they ban MV??????????????

If you was wanting to be astronomer friendly, you would
ban all non monochromatic light sources.
If you allow HPS and MH, why single out MV?

Yes, MV is the least efficient at producing light of the HID bulbs.
But some people compare MV lamp efficacy to incandescent lights.
There is really no comparison thought.
The efficiency is about three times greater on average.

And yet, they isolate them from the other "White light" source.
That being metal halide.
Which is only two times better, at best.
And that is getting down to such low usages that
maintenance cost can wipe out any electrical savings
you may get with operating MH bulbs.

The only time MH bulbs stand out from MV is
in color critical applications, and large wattages.

When you get to small wattages,
MH bulbs get more expensive to run from year to year.

At are electric rate of $0.05 a KWh.
A 100W MV light consumes $22 of power a year.
The bulb will need changed every five years.
It will take $2 a year, on average, to replace a $10 light
A 70W MH light will consume $15 of power a year.
The bulb will need changed every two years.
It will take $10 a year, on average, to replace a $20 light

The price of replacing the bulbs more often will wipe out
any money you save on electricity, plus some.
That isn't including time, equipment, and other stuff used in
changing the light, and getting the replacement light.
And it doesn't include the environmental impact of producing,
and disposing of the MH bulb which contains about as much
mercury as the MV bulb.
People keep forgetting that a MH bulb is just a MV bulb
Spiked with halides.

I would almost bet that the energy used to produce the
extra HID replacement lights for small MH fixtures
will be more than the energy saved by those fixtures.
It takes A LOT OF ENERGY AND RAW FUEL to produce a HID light.
Just go to a glass foundry,
and you will see how much energy in put into every ounce of glass.

All the above,
and the fact that I can not tolerate a Sodium light source.
A gray wolf is almost impossible to spot under a LPS light, and
is hard to see under a HPS source.
A clear MV light is leaps and bounds above a HPS light.
A DX MV light is in a whole other class.

So, the only choices lighting around the barn are MV, and MH.
And the one I will chose is mercury vapor.
It provides the safety, and it is cheaper to run,
and more environmentally friendly in the long one.
It may be in a full cut off fixture,
but it will still be a MV light.

IF they ever try to ban MV bulbs as an outside light source around here,
I will attack the law on that basses.
It is producing landfill, and wasting energy in the name of conservation.
The people that made the law, can't see past the advertised figures,
to see the real environmental impact that the equipment has.

They should stick to regulating light pollution,
and keep their nose out of regulating energy efficiency.
It is none of their business.

If you have to force someone to save money,
I have to ask, is it really saving money?

That is my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
I will withdraw my self from the group now.
If I stay, I will get caught up in a flame war.
And that is something I didn't come here to do.
And I ask other people to please not make this a flame thread.
All i wanted to do was state my opinion.
Good day, and best wishes.


  #2  
Old February 6th 04, 08:57 PM
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:37:13 GMT, "N9WOS" wrote:

Welcome people.
Nice little discussion group you got here.
I found the particular subject listed above by doing a google search.
It struck a subject that I have been thinking about for a while.
So I will post my opinion...


Good laws support intelligent lighting. Largely, that means that lighting is
suitable for its usage. So it is perfectly fine to use outdoor lighting while
you are working outdoors, but it should be turned off or greatly reduced when
you are not. Most outdoor lighting does not require a broadband white source, so
it is reasonable for lighting laws to specify the types of sources used. It is
also reasonable for regulatory agencies to grant exemptions when there is a need
for something else (and I recognized that those needs exist).

What is important to remember is that when you use light on your own property,
you are still infringing on others. Can you guarantee that every photon you
generate will stay on your property? Of course not, and that's the purpose of
lighting laws. You are allowed to burn certain things on your property, but not
other things. That's because the law seeks a balance between your rights and the
rights of others. You are allowed to make a certain amount of noise on your
property, but not more. Again, the law is balancing your rights with everyone
else's. Why should it be any different with light?

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
  #3  
Old February 6th 04, 08:57 PM
Chris L Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:37:13 GMT, "N9WOS" wrote:

Welcome people.
Nice little discussion group you got here.
I found the particular subject listed above by doing a google search.
It struck a subject that I have been thinking about for a while.
So I will post my opinion...


Good laws support intelligent lighting. Largely, that means that lighting is
suitable for its usage. So it is perfectly fine to use outdoor lighting while
you are working outdoors, but it should be turned off or greatly reduced when
you are not. Most outdoor lighting does not require a broadband white source, so
it is reasonable for lighting laws to specify the types of sources used. It is
also reasonable for regulatory agencies to grant exemptions when there is a need
for something else (and I recognized that those needs exist).

What is important to remember is that when you use light on your own property,
you are still infringing on others. Can you guarantee that every photon you
generate will stay on your property? Of course not, and that's the purpose of
lighting laws. You are allowed to burn certain things on your property, but not
other things. That's because the law seeks a balance between your rights and the
rights of others. You are allowed to make a certain amount of noise on your
property, but not more. Again, the law is balancing your rights with everyone
else's. Why should it be any different with light?

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
  #4  
Old February 7th 04, 01:39 AM
N9WOS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting


One quote from

Minutes
Mt. Pleasant Planning Commission
October 10, 2002

.................................................. ...........................
................
Staff said the most common lights are incandescent, which screw into bulbs,
mercury vapor, sodium vapor, metal halide, and fluorescent bulbs. The
ordinance we are proposing will ban mercury vapor lamps. He stated some
communities specify all light be sodium vapor, (which give an orange glow)
or all lights be metal halide (which is white light). We need to determine
if we want to regulate to that level.

Commissioner Harter stated he thought the idea was to control light
pollution - not to micro-manage people's decision-making.

Commissioner Smith agreed that we do not need to regulate which exact type.


.................................................. ...........................
........


  #5  
Old February 7th 04, 01:39 AM
N9WOS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting


One quote from

Minutes
Mt. Pleasant Planning Commission
October 10, 2002

.................................................. ...........................
................
Staff said the most common lights are incandescent, which screw into bulbs,
mercury vapor, sodium vapor, metal halide, and fluorescent bulbs. The
ordinance we are proposing will ban mercury vapor lamps. He stated some
communities specify all light be sodium vapor, (which give an orange glow)
or all lights be metal halide (which is white light). We need to determine
if we want to regulate to that level.

Commissioner Harter stated he thought the idea was to control light
pollution - not to micro-manage people's decision-making.

Commissioner Smith agreed that we do not need to regulate which exact type.


.................................................. ...........................
........


  #6  
Old February 7th 04, 07:13 AM
fritzel67
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting

N9WOS:

If you're so intent on "lighting up the world", why are you perusing an
astronomy newsgroup?

Also, it's VERY doubtful that you see gray wolves in your
location...wolves are all but extinct except where being introduced out
west, and coyotes have never been known to be a threat to humans (and I
know of no one who's been attacked by a wolf...that's a myth that people
came up with based out of fear to perpetuate the mass killing of wolves
early in the 20th century).

Everyone has a right to use what lighting they choose...just like the have
the right to free speech, and other freedoms. But what makes this
democracy work, is the respect and consideration for one's neighbors, who
may have different views than yourself.

Why is it that folks who live "out in the country" have such "I'll do
whatever I want" attitudes? I guess you have to live around people to
learn some manners...



On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:39:15 +0000, N9WOS wrote:


One quote from

Minutes
Mt. Pleasant Planning Commission
October 10, 2002

.................................................. ..........................
...............
Staff said the most common lights are incandescent, which screw into bulbs,
mercury vapor, sodium vapor, metal halide, and fluorescent bulbs. The
ordinance we are proposing will ban mercury vapor lamps. He stated some
communities specify all light be sodium vapor, (which give an orange glow)
or all lights be metal halide (which is white light). We need to determine
if we want to regulate to that level.

Commissioner Harter stated he thought the idea was to control light
pollution - not to micro-manage people's decision-making.

Commissioner Smith agreed that we do not need to regulate which exact type.


.................................................. ..........................
.......


  #7  
Old February 7th 04, 07:13 AM
fritzel67
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting

N9WOS:

If you're so intent on "lighting up the world", why are you perusing an
astronomy newsgroup?

Also, it's VERY doubtful that you see gray wolves in your
location...wolves are all but extinct except where being introduced out
west, and coyotes have never been known to be a threat to humans (and I
know of no one who's been attacked by a wolf...that's a myth that people
came up with based out of fear to perpetuate the mass killing of wolves
early in the 20th century).

Everyone has a right to use what lighting they choose...just like the have
the right to free speech, and other freedoms. But what makes this
democracy work, is the respect and consideration for one's neighbors, who
may have different views than yourself.

Why is it that folks who live "out in the country" have such "I'll do
whatever I want" attitudes? I guess you have to live around people to
learn some manners...



On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:39:15 +0000, N9WOS wrote:


One quote from

Minutes
Mt. Pleasant Planning Commission
October 10, 2002

.................................................. ..........................
...............
Staff said the most common lights are incandescent, which screw into bulbs,
mercury vapor, sodium vapor, metal halide, and fluorescent bulbs. The
ordinance we are proposing will ban mercury vapor lamps. He stated some
communities specify all light be sodium vapor, (which give an orange glow)
or all lights be metal halide (which is white light). We need to determine
if we want to regulate to that level.

Commissioner Harter stated he thought the idea was to control light
pollution - not to micro-manage people's decision-making.

Commissioner Smith agreed that we do not need to regulate which exact type.


.................................................. ..........................
.......


  #8  
Old February 7th 04, 08:27 AM
jerry warner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting



N9WOS wrote:

So, in regard to outdoor lighting, I am quite fond of it.
You appreciate it when you are working outside at night,
and there is forest in all directions.


So turn your lights off when you are through working! You dont keep
your power tools on when you are done, do ya? Bottom line is, do
you want the world all to yourself or are you willing to share some space?
Do you with your lights think you own the whole world or are you willing
to share any small space for others NOT like you?

As for your wolves and cyotes. Studies show that continual lighting of
their territory increases their numbers through over population, removes
their fear of Man, and theyare far more likely to encroach on your territory
and come up and bite you in the ass. (Or carry your kids of for food!).
I mean it is you who lit THEIR world up and thereby gave them permission
to 'move in'. One of my sons has worked in Denali for five years and the
correlation between lighting and Bear enchroachment is very clear.

So why dont you go the full route? Along with your sodium lighting why
dont you and your fellow lighters just eliminate all species of life on
this planet, but you. You can have it all to yourself - and your lighting
too! It seems a reasonable conclusion to things for the Master Race
enshrined by Sodium lighting! (* "..and the angel came in a cloud of bright
light so intense no Man could look upon it or see the stars of his feet
below him. And the angel said, it is the end of all things. Prepare your way
for Salvation and the Day of the Lord." - ep1.9 xviii - The Preparation of the
Way)

It had to be said -

Jerry



  #9  
Old February 7th 04, 08:27 AM
jerry warner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting



N9WOS wrote:

So, in regard to outdoor lighting, I am quite fond of it.
You appreciate it when you are working outside at night,
and there is forest in all directions.


So turn your lights off when you are through working! You dont keep
your power tools on when you are done, do ya? Bottom line is, do
you want the world all to yourself or are you willing to share some space?
Do you with your lights think you own the whole world or are you willing
to share any small space for others NOT like you?

As for your wolves and cyotes. Studies show that continual lighting of
their territory increases their numbers through over population, removes
their fear of Man, and theyare far more likely to encroach on your territory
and come up and bite you in the ass. (Or carry your kids of for food!).
I mean it is you who lit THEIR world up and thereby gave them permission
to 'move in'. One of my sons has worked in Denali for five years and the
correlation between lighting and Bear enchroachment is very clear.

So why dont you go the full route? Along with your sodium lighting why
dont you and your fellow lighters just eliminate all species of life on
this planet, but you. You can have it all to yourself - and your lighting
too! It seems a reasonable conclusion to things for the Master Race
enshrined by Sodium lighting! (* "..and the angel came in a cloud of bright
light so intense no Man could look upon it or see the stars of his feet
below him. And the angel said, it is the end of all things. Prepare your way
for Salvation and the Day of the Lord." - ep1.9 xviii - The Preparation of the
Way)

It had to be said -

Jerry



  #10  
Old February 8th 04, 01:04 PM
Tony Flanders
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Posts: n/a
Default Light pollution. Was: Exterior House Lighting

"N9WOS" wrote in message ...

I live 20 miles from the nearest large city.
That being Bloomington Indiana .

...
I have lived here all my life, and the only
real neighbors I have is the gray wolves and coyotes.


There are no wolves in the U.S. east of the Mississippi. People
often mistake eastern coyotes for wolves; they are *much* bigger
than western coyotes, although otherwise quite similar.

I have never heard of a coyote attacking an adult human being
anywhere anytime. In my own state (Massachussetts) there have
been two attacks on children in recent years, neither serious,
both during the day in densely populated suburbs. However,
coyotes are a serious threat to dogs and cats.

There are tons of coyotes around my country home, where I observe
frequently, but it has never so much as occurred to me to worry
about them, day or night. I do worry a little about the bears,
which are also pretty common around there. The last coyote I saw
(a couple of weeks ago) was right here in Cambridge, MA, one of
the most densely populated cities in the U.S.

- Tony Flanders
 




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