Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

On 14/11/16 18:37, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 14/11/16 11:02, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

False. See my other reply for videos of examples.

"Gravity, bungees, and (in true Fred Flintstone style)
horses are also used."

In other words a bio-mechanical engine and to examples of converting
potential energy to kinetic energy. So, a glider still can't be
launched without inputting some sort of energy which comes from
somewhere.

Sure. Does that come as a surprise to anyone that has
done even a little science?


I suppose a large headwind might suffice, if you like taking
off backwards with respect to the ground.

I've had zero groundspeed when ~2kft from the ground;
if I had pushed a little closer to the stall I would
have been going backwards. Nothing unremarkable there.

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 12:54, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 11:02, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

False. See my other reply for videos of examples.

(But in Europe winches are more common than tugs, and
a typical release height is 2kft, but higher is possible.
A normal tug release height is 2kft, sometimes 3kft)


And before anyone mentions that a glider can stay aloft pretty much "all
day" by riding thermals, yes it can. But, if you're spending all day
searching for the best thermals, you're not spending any time going from
point A to point B, so they're not terribly useful as transportation.

True, but they are a damn sight more fun

(Besides, ISTR sailing ships seem to have been
used for transportation, even though they were
sometimes becalmed )


'Becalmed in a glider means you land. Then you have to figure out how
to get it back up in the air again. And you'd better have places to
land all along the way.


Standard operating procedu pick a field, pluck off the wings,
put glider in trailer, go home. Also many gliders have "get
out of trouble" engines, but they expect not to use them.

But the point is not whether gliders are practical means
of transport (they aren't), but whether you need engines
to go up. (You don't - unless you count the sun as an engine
)


So the point is irrelevant, since gliders aren't airplanes and they
practically never get off the ground without an engine.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 12:52, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 09:55, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

Firstly, they are extremely advanced airplanes:


Nope. No engine means they aren't an airplane. An airplane is a
fixed wing heavier than air powered vehicle.

That might be /your/ definition,


Yeah, because I own a dictionary. You should try buying one.


... but it is only valid
in a Tweedledum-and-Tweedledee sense. If you want to
converse with other people, it helps to use words in
a standard way. The first google result gives:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/airplane
airplane
noun
1. a heavier-than-air aircraft kept aloft by the
upward thrust exerted by the passing air on its
fixed wings and driven by propellers, jet propulsion,
etc.


There you go. If YOU want to converse with other people, it helps to
use words in a standard way and not cling to broadened secondary
definitions.


2. any similar heavier-than-air aircraft, as a
glider or helicopter.


Secondly, neither winches nor tugs will take a glider up
to 10k/20k/30k/ft (40k/50kft in rare cases!) - and can't
even get there on their own! It is unusual for a tug to take
a glider above 3kft over here; 2kft is the normal release
height.


So?


It disproves your contention that aircraft need engines
to go up.


Except gliders, while aircraft, are not airplanes. Nice try changing
the wording to claim I said something I didn't say, though. Now, how
many of those gliders left the grounds or got to their launch point
without an engine?



Finally, you have too little imagination about how to launch
a glider. Gravity, bungees, and (in true Fred Flintstone style)
horses are also used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la3rb9LfG0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxbdXqEvxE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86rOfjhsIIM

Now, what was that about "up there" and "without an engine"?


Yes, you can build a glider, move it to the launch site by ox cart,
and throw it off a cliff. You can lift it with balloons. You can
even try farting magic pixie dust on them. But that's not how they're
usually transported and launched.


True, and balloons have been used, but I'm skeptical
about pixie dust. But those are separate points not
related to whether you need engines to go up.


Still not an airplane. Balloons have 'engines' (that big burning
thing under the envelope).


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

In article ,
says...
Fun is not a practical transportation device. It's awfully hard to get
a glider to fly arbitrary routes thousands of miles long. It's trivial
with a jet airliner.

Sure, but what does that have to do with the original point,
viz "Remove the engines and airplanes don't go up."
The can, and do, go up - occasionally higher than commercial
airliners other than Concorde.


Look at the *original* topic. I.e. the subject line:

Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

In other words, an ion *engine*. Somewhere along the way the original
topic got distorted and has become a love/hate glider fest.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

Jeff Findley wrote in
:

In article ,
says...
Fun is not a practical transportation device. It's awfully
hard to get a glider to fly arbitrary routes thousands of
miles long. It's trivial with a jet airliner.

Sure, but what does that have to do with the original point,
viz "Remove the engines and airplanes don't go up."
The can, and do, go up - occasionally higher than commercial
airliners other than Concorde.


Look at the *original* topic. I.e. the subject line:

Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

In other words, an ion *engine*. Somewhere along the way the
original topic got distorted and has become a love/hate glider
fest.

Topic drift? That _never_ happens on usenet.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 14/11/16 19:47, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 12:52, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 09:55, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

Firstly, they are extremely advanced airplanes:


Nope. No engine means they aren't an airplane. An airplane is a
fixed wing heavier than air powered vehicle.

That might be /your/ definition,


Yeah, because I own a dictionary. You should try buying one.

I don't understand that. What are you trying to say.


... but it is only valid
in a Tweedledum-and-Tweedledee sense. If you want to
converse with other people, it helps to use words in
a standard way. The first google result gives:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/airplane
airplane
noun
1. a heavier-than-air aircraft kept aloft by the
upward thrust exerted by the passing air on its
fixed wings and driven by propellers, jet propulsion,
etc.


There you go. If YOU want to converse with other people, it helps to
use words in a standard way and not cling to broadened secondary
definitions.

A definition is a definition. You are struggling
in a mildly amusing way. I'm really not sure why!


2. any similar heavier-than-air aircraft, as a
glider or helicopter.


Secondly, neither winches nor tugs will take a glider up
to 10k/20k/30k/ft (40k/50kft in rare cases!) - and can't
even get there on their own! It is unusual for a tug to take
a glider above 3kft over here; 2kft is the normal release
height.


So?


It disproves your contention that aircraft need engines
to go up.


Except gliders, while aircraft, are not airplanes. Nice try changing
the wording to claim I said something I didn't say, though. Now, how
many of those gliders left the grounds or got to their launch point
without an engine?

All of those launched by bungee at Long Mynd. I
don't know about the others.

Hint: gliders are often pushed around to get
them to where they need to be. I suppose you'll
next be saying that human muscles are engines.


Finally, you have too little imagination about how to launch
a glider. Gravity, bungees, and (in true Fred Flintstone style)
horses are also used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la3rb9LfG0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxbdXqEvxE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86rOfjhsIIM

Now, what was that about "up there" and "without an engine"?


Yes, you can build a glider, move it to the launch site by ox cart,
and throw it off a cliff. You can lift it with balloons. You can
even try farting magic pixie dust on them. But that's not how they're
usually transported and launched.


True, and balloons have been used, but I'm skeptical
about pixie dust. But those are separate points not
related to whether you need engines to go up.


Still not an airplane. Balloons have 'engines' (that big burning
thing under the envelope).

On 14/11/16 19:35, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 12:54, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 11:02, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

False. See my other reply for videos of examples.

(But in Europe winches are more common than tugs, and
a typical release height is 2kft, but higher is possible.
A normal tug release height is 2kft, sometimes 3kft)


And before anyone mentions that a glider can stay aloft pretty much "all
day" by riding thermals, yes it can. But, if you're spending all day
searching for the best thermals, you're not spending any time going from
point A to point B, so they're not terribly useful as transportation.

True, but they are a damn sight more fun

(Besides, ISTR sailing ships seem to have been
used for transportation, even though they were
sometimes becalmed )


'Becalmed in a glider means you land. Then you have to figure out how
to get it back up in the air again. And you'd better have places to
land all along the way.


Standard operating procedu pick a field, pluck off the wings,
put glider in trailer, go home. Also many gliders have "get
out of trouble" engines, but they expect not to use them.

But the point is not whether gliders are practical means
of transport (they aren't), but whether you need engines
to go up. (You don't - unless you count the sun as an engine
)


So the point is irrelevant, since gliders aren't airplanes

airplane noun
1. a heavier-than-air aircraft kept aloft by the upward
thrust exerted by the passing air on its fixed wings and
driven by propellers, jet propulsion, etc.
2. any similar heavier-than-air aircraft, as a
glider or helicopter.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/airplane


and they
practically never get off the ground without an engine.

They go up without an engine, which contradicts
your original statement. I've gone up at 1000ft/min
until reaching cloudbase, pulling 2.5-3G continuously
while doing it. So did the other glider ~300ft away.

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 19:47, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 12:52, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 09:55, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

Firstly, they are extremely advanced airplanes:


Nope. No engine means they aren't an airplane. An airplane is a
fixed wing heavier than air powered vehicle.

That might be /your/ definition,


Yeah, because I own a dictionary. You should try buying one.


I don't understand that. What are you trying to say.


That you don't understand. Perhaps if you used words in standard ways
with standard definitions.


... but it is only valid
in a Tweedledum-and-Tweedledee sense. If you want to
converse with other people, it helps to use words in
a standard way. The first google result gives:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/airplane
airplane
noun
1. a heavier-than-air aircraft kept aloft by the
upward thrust exerted by the passing air on its
fixed wings and driven by propellers, jet propulsion,
etc.


There you go. If YOU want to converse with other people, it helps to
use words in a standard way and not cling to broadened secondary
definitions.


A definition is a definition. You are struggling
in a mildly amusing way. I'm really not sure why!


All definitions are not created equal, any more than people are.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 1:56:01 AM UTC-8, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

http://epicholidays.com.au/activity_...ing-simulator/

http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/r...s-defy-gravity

An unpowered craft with appropriate ground based blowers and controls can easily be envisioned by any competent engineer.

L/D of a modern glider is 40:1 to 60:1 depending on wing span. In ground effect this can be increased to 80:1 to 120:1.

https://www.scribd.com/document/2884...fect-Sailplane

A two axis blower of an appropriate size can easily launch a glider from a spot, or bring one in for a vertical landing at a spot, with minimal energy.. The glider once launched could be sustained in flight, in even still air, and at low altitudes, this could provide a sort of track consisting of a series of blowers with two axis blowers on each to pick up and lift a glider every mile or so.

Lifting a glider from 25 feet to 50 feet above ground and locating an automatically actuated blower every mile or so, should allow sustained flight in even still air. Speeds of 170 mph can be sustained.

A variant would be a self launching glider like the two seater Schleicher ASH 25 - with an 18.6 kW (25 horsepower) fan - here we replace the Rotax engine with a 20 kW electric fan engine - which reduces weight - and replace the petrol tank with a lithium battery pack - and equip the system with a laser power receiver like that developed by laser motive.

You have solar powered towers, with their own battery packs on the ground, that beam energy to gliders equipped with tracking devices. This system is in advanced stages of testing by Lasermotive.

http://lasermotive.com/wp-content/up...-March2010.pdf

So, you can land and take off in a small space with a two axis blower as described above, and once free of the ground, an electric fan on the plane takes you altitude and course. Every 10 miles or so, you have a laser beam on a 75 foot tower that detects you and recharges your battery or lets you run your fan while recharging your battery. The system is also equipped with AI to monitor weather conditions and use them to fly thermals to your destination in addition to using the towers. You land as you took off, at a blower assisted platform - fully automatically.

With a 60 to 1 L/D ratio climbing 880 feet every 10 miles - you spend a minute climbing and 4 minutes flying to the next tower - so, you average about 5 kW - without thermal assist.

On Nov/15/2016 at 12:07 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote :
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 19:47, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 12:52, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 09:55, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

Firstly, they are extremely advanced airplanes:


Nope. No engine means they aren't an airplane. An airplane is a
fixed wing heavier than air powered vehicle.

That might be /your/ definition,


Yeah, because I own a dictionary. You should try buying one.


I don't understand that. What are you trying to say.


That you don't understand. Perhaps if you used words in standard ways
with standard definitions.


... but it is only valid
in a Tweedledum-and-Tweedledee sense. If you want to
converse with other people, it helps to use words in
a standard way. The first google result gives:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/airplane
airplane
noun
1. a heavier-than-air aircraft kept aloft by the
upward thrust exerted by the passing air on its
fixed wings and driven by propellers, jet propulsion,
etc.


There you go. If YOU want to converse with other people, it helps to
use words in a standard way and not cling to broadened secondary
definitions.


A definition is a definition. You are struggling
in a mildly amusing way. I'm really not sure why!


All definitions are not created equal, any more than people are.

If I understand you correctly we shouldn't use definitions from the
dictionary when that doesn't suit you. Is that it?


Alain Fournier