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Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles



 
 
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  #31  
Old June 30th 09, 12:04 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Fevric J. Glandules
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

Pat Flannery wrote:

IIRC, in the case of the Thor IRBMs deployed in Britain, it was
literally a "Dual Key" set-up; they couldn't be launched unless a
authorized US military officer entered a part of the launch sequence
unknown to the British. A US officer was stationed at the Thor bases in
case the need arose.


The difference between the Thors and the UK's Polaris, Trident,
WE.177 (etc.) warheads is that the Thors remained US property.
(AIUI). Thus the US wouldn't let the UK launch them without
their agreement; equally the US couldn't launch them without
the UK's agreement.

It would have been more difficult with a SLBM; you would have had to


It would have been politically impossible. A nuclear deterrent is
of no value if it is not under sovereign control. This is what the
Nassau Agreement was all about.

"Currently, British Trident commanders are able to launch their missiles
without authorisation, whereas their American colleagues cannot."


Oh, that makes me feel comfortable...just like the bicycle locks used to
arm British nuclear weapons:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/7097101.stm


Do you trust your armed forces, or not?
  #32  
Old June 30th 09, 12:23 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
dott.Piergiorgio[_2_]
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

Pat Flannery ha scritto:

It would have been more difficult with a SLBM; you would have had to
carry a US officer on each sub (one sees the concept of a wild flip-side
of Dr. Strangelove here, where a lone US officer is trying to talk the
insane commander of a British sub out of nuking Paris because they have
insulted British beer as the first step in replacing it with cheap wine.)


My congrats for the quotation of a real movie (_dr. Strangelove_)
instead of the easy parallel with a questionable flick (_crimison
tide_), notwhistanding the apparent analogy of the situation with the
latter title...

BZ !

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
  #33  
Old June 30th 09, 12:43 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
dott.Piergiorgio[_2_]
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

Pat Flannery ha scritto:

Not if the things are in the Adriatic between Italy and Yugoslavia; take
a peek at a map.
Fire it from just about any other point and it will pass over either
Italy itself or a neutral nation on the way to Yugoslavia.
Whereas a sub could hide for the amount of time it would take to get the
gyros aligned for launch, a surface ship would feel mighty vulnrable.


in an Italy vs. Yugoslavia scenario, the Tyrrhenian Sea is rather safe
from the Italian perspective, because yugoslavian ships/boat must pass
two rather difficult choke points, the boats against top-notch ASW
capabilities.
  #34  
Old June 30th 09, 12:46 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
dott.Piergiorgio[_2_]
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

Dennis ha scritto:
dott.Piergiorgio wrote:

eh.... that was once a nuclear race between us and *switzerland* was
really a surprise to me, when I read for the first time this very
webpage a pair of years ago, i was so --- O_O ,


WTF??? Details? This sounds interesting!!!


pls read the link provided by the OP, that on astronautix.com or
something like....

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
  #35  
Old June 30th 09, 01:27 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles



Derek Lyons wrote:
There's more to it than just range and bearing to target Pat - you
also need to be able to erect and align your guidance systems before
launching. Among other things you need very exact information about
your heading in order to do this, which turns out not to be very
simple.


I think the heading of any land-based silo missile will be pretty much
due eastwards as the Earth rotates.
Unlike on a sub, where you are going to have to fire while on the move
at a particular bearing from one latitude and longitude to strike a
stationary target at another latitude and longitude, in this case both
launcher and target are going to be fixed in relation to each other.
In the case of a road mobile system, by going to a pre-surveyed launch
site, you can then enter its position into the guidance system, and
already have the necessary guidance system input data ready to go for
several alternate targets that can be reached from that position. The
truck could be parked aimed in approximately the right direction for the
chosen target, and the launch tube itself rotated a bit after erection
till it reaches the exact desired azimuth alignment.
Years back, you said it took around 1/2 hour to get a SLBM ready to go
from the "make ready to launch" command coming in, and in this case I
assume you would get the gyros spun up and aligned in time of crisis,
and then update their settings as things progressed. Although I can't
picture Italy and Switzerland getting into a nuclear war, and think the
Soviet Union would have pulled the plug on Tito if he had ever tried to
deploy Yugoslav-controlled nuclear weapons that they had no control over.
If somehow Tito had done that, and attacked Italy, he would be in a
position where he would be at war with NATO without the Soviet Union to
back him up, as he was a iffy Warsaw Pact member at best.
If Italy had gone nuclear, I'm willing to bet that Libya wouldn't have
been shooting Scud missiles at the island of Lampedusa like happened
back in 1986. ;-)

Pat
  #36  
Old June 30th 09, 01:30 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles



Fevric J. Glandules wrote:
Oh, that makes me feel comfortable...just like the bicycle locks used to
arm British nuclear weapons:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/7097101.stm


Do you trust your armed forces, or not?


I wouldn't fully trust the Buddha with a atomic bomb. :-D

Pat
  #37  
Old June 30th 09, 01:34 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles



dott.Piergiorgio wrote:

in an Italy vs. Yugoslavia scenario, the Tyrrhenian Sea is rather safe
from the Italian perspective, because yugoslavian ships/boat must pass
two rather difficult choke points, the boats against top-notch ASW
capabilities.


Wouldn't that bring the spent first stages down on Italian soil though?
It is a mighty defensible position though, as you point out.

Pat
  #38  
Old June 30th 09, 03:58 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
Pat Flannery wrote:

Which brings up a interesting point...would there have been any reason
to put the missiles at sea?


Because it is fair to middlin' hard to find things at sea, even in the
Mediterranean lake.


This came up at work a few months ago while discussing Somali pirates.
People were convinced it was trivial to find their ships. (That's "targets"
for you submariners out there. :-)




--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

  #39  
Old June 30th 09, 06:25 PM posted to sci.space.history
OM[_6_]
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 07:27:53 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:

I think the heading of any land-based silo missile will be pretty much
due eastwards as the Earth rotates.


....Did this apply to ICBMs targeted between the US and the Soviets?
IIRC the majority of those flight paths went north over the Arctic
because the distance saved was greater than any benefits of launching
with the Earth's rotation could have applied.


OM
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  #40  
Old June 30th 09, 06:28 PM posted to sci.space.history
OM[_6_]
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Default Fate of Italian Polaris Missiles

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 07:27:53 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:

If Italy had gone nuclear, I'm willing to bet that Libya wouldn't have
been shooting Scud missiles at the island of Lampedusa like happened
back in 1986. ;-)


....To this day, the best weapon the Italians have against terrorist
scumbags like Quaddafi is, of course, the Mafia. The Red Guard
terrorist group that killed Aldo Moro was virtually annihilated within
a year because the efforts by Italian police to capture the Red Guards
had put such a damper on organized crime that the Dons put huge
bounties out on Red Guard terrorists.

Gotta love it!

OM
--
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] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
 




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