Airspace

Hey everyone.

I am writing a paper on use and strategic significance of Earthspace.
Related to that, I was wondering if anyone could explain where (or if) a
nation's sovereign airspace ends (regarding altitude). I know that when
it comes to how deep under ground something belongs to someone differs
worldwide, I'm unsure about the airspace however.

If it's determined by a treaty I would very much appreciate it if you
could provide a link or any kind of info as I am going to have to quote
it and name the source.


thanks in advance.


cheers

"Fusion295" wrote in message ...
Hey everyone.

I am writing a paper on use and strategic significance of Earthspace.
Related to that, I was wondering if anyone could explain where (or if) a
nation's sovereign airspace ends (regarding altitude). I know that when it
comes to how deep under ground something belongs to someone differs
worldwide, I'm unsure about the airspace however.

If it's determined by a treaty I would very much appreciate it if you
could provide a link or any kind of info as I am going to have to quote it
and name the source.

I'll leave it to you to find your own sources, but I'll try to point you in
one possible direction.
Historically, the US and the USSR set the precedent. Specifically, the USSR
launching Sputnik and the US's reaction, or lack thereof, to the launch.
The US specifically did not object to Sputnik "over-flying the US" because
that would mean the USSR would be able to do the same when the US launched
its first satellite. With much interest on both sides for the potential use
of space for military reconnaissance reasons (optical and radio spy
satellites), neither side wanted to object to orbital over-flights of their
territory.

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon

"Fusion295" wrote in message ...
Hey everyone.

I am writing a paper on use and strategic significance of Earthspace.
Related to that, I was wondering if anyone could explain where (or if) a
nation's sovereign airspace ends (regarding altitude). I know that when it
comes to how deep under ground something belongs to someone differs
worldwide, I'm unsure about the airspace however.

Generally this was determined by fiat with Sputnik, if you can orbit, it's
no longer sovereign airspace.

I'm not sure but I'd probably start looking at the Outer Space Treaty.


If it's determined by a treaty I would very much appreciate it if you
could provide a link or any kind of info as I am going to have to quote it
and name the source.


thanks in advance.


cheers



--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

Fusion295 wrote:
Hey everyone.

I am writing a paper on use and strategic significance of Earthspace.
Related to that, I was wondering if anyone could explain where (or if) a
nation's sovereign airspace ends (regarding altitude). I know that when
it comes to how deep under ground something belongs to someone differs
worldwide, I'm unsure about the airspace however.

This got covered a lot during theoretical legal discussions about space
in the 1950s, and it wasn't really settled till after Sputnik 1, when it
was decided that space would be treated something like Antarctica; open
to all as long as they didn't put nuclear weapons into it.
Note the difference between this and the concept of "open seas" where no
military force of any type is banned.
Reconnaissance sattelites were seen as useful by the major powers early
on in the space age, so there was no overt attempt to attack them as
they passed over the airspace of other nations, and this was later
codified under the SALT II treaty between the US and USSR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strateg...mitation_Talks

If it's determined by a treaty I would very much appreciate it if you
could provide a link or any kind of info as I am going to have to quote
it and name the source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty
Should be a good starting point for resources on this subject.
Although the US claimed that outer space began at 50 miles altitude, so
that it could say some of its early X-15 flights went into space, the
generally accepted international boundary of where space begins is now
100 km - 62.137 miles (two of the later X-15 flights did get above that
altitude).

Pat

Jeff Findley wrote:
Historically, the US and the USSR set the precedent. Specifically, the USSR
launching Sputnik and the US's reaction, or lack thereof, to the launch.
The US specifically did not object to Sputnik "over-flying the US" because
that would mean the USSR would be able to do the same when the US launched
its first satellite.

Not that either side would have had much of a way of destroying a
satellite in the early days other than lobbing a nuclear weapon at it...

Pat

Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:

Generally this was determined by fiat with Sputnik, if you can orbit, it's
no longer sovereign airspace.

Which brings up the Air Force 50 mile altitude claim, as that seems
pretty low to orbit at even for a single time around..although something
like a finned dart full of depleted uranium might be able to go around once.
They had a discussion of this he
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/i...showtopic=5633

Pat

On 12.1.2010. 19:23, Jeff Findley wrote:
Historically, the US and the USSR set the precedent. Specifically, the USSR
launching Sputnik and the US's reaction, or lack thereof, to the launch.
The US specifically did not object to Sputnik "over-flying the US" because
that would mean the USSR would be able to do the same when the US launched
its first satellite.


I remember hearing this exact thing in a documentary about Sputnis
(can't remember the name, it was a while ago). Even tho it seems like a
valid reason I don't really buy it

I'm not an American, so please don't interpret this as a pretext for
starting a flame war. Couldn't the US have just launcehd a satellite
into an orbit with such an inclination that it's doesn't pass over the
airspace of USSR?

Orin

On 12.1.2010. 23:19, Pat Flannery wrote:
This got covered a lot during theoretical legal discussions about space
in the 1950s, and it wasn't really settled till after Sputnik 1, when it
was decided that space would be treated something like Antarctica; open
to all as long as they didn't put nuclear weapons into it.
Note the difference between this and the concept of "open seas" where no
military force of any type is banned.
Reconnaissance sattelites were seen as useful by the major powers early
on in the space age, so there was no overt attempt to attack them as
they passed over the airspace of other nations, and this was later
codified under the SALT II treaty between the US and USSR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strateg...mitation_Talks

If it's determined by a treaty I would very much appreciate it if you
could provide a link or any kind of info as I am going to have to
quote it and name the source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty
Should be a good starting point for resources on this subject.

Thanks for replying Pat. I actually found those links about one cup of
coffee after I posted here. And yes, that are a decent starting point.
When I started dealing with this particular issue I was trapped in what
seemed like a maze on http://www.unoosa.org/ and I felt like a needed a
life line.

Although the US claimed that outer space began at 50 miles altitude, so
that it could say some of its early X-15 flights went into space, the
generally accepted international boundary of where space begins is now
100 km - 62.137 miles (two of the later X-15 flights did get above that
altitude).

The x-15 flights are going to be a nice trivia like addition, thanks for
that. As far as the exact lower limit (or lack thereof) of space, I
guess I am going to cite some of those named in outer space article on
wikipedia


Thanks for your input Pat, Greg and Jeff, it was most appreciated.

cheers


Orin

"Fusion295" wrote in message ...
Hey everyone.

I am writing a paper on use and strategic significance of Earthspace. Related
to that, I was wondering if anyone could explain where (or if) a nation's
sovereign airspace ends (regarding altitude). I know that when it comes to how
deep under ground something belongs to someone differs worldwide, I'm unsure
about the airspace however.

If it's determined by a treaty I would very much appreciate it if you could
provide a link or any kind of info as I am going to have to quote it and name
the source.


thanks in advance.

As far as military policy is concerned, you mentioned strategic, the
official policy of the US military is that we have a right to
freely operate in space, and anyone that tries to stop us
is committing an act of war. I suppose we would honor
the same right for other countries. This policy I think makes
space a first-come, first-serve sort of affair.
An American tradition!


Air Force Space Command

"The mission of the United States Air Force is to fly, fight
and win...in air, space and cyberspace."

Air and Space Superiority : With it, joint forces can dominate
enemy operations in all dimensions -- land, sea, air and space.
http://www.afspc.af.mil/main/welcome.asp








cheers

Fusion295 wrote:
I'm not an American, so please don't interpret this as a pretext for
starting a flame war. Couldn't the US have just launcehd a satellite
into an orbit with such an inclination that it's doesn't pass over the
airspace of USSR?

That would be hard to do unless you put it into a low inclination orbit,
as anything of over 35 degrees would pass over some part the Soviet
Union after a few orbits.
The Soviet launch site was north of that latitude, and that meant that
anything they launched would end up going over the US fairly often.
Since they were a lot more closed society than the US, it was in the
interest of the US to do nothing about Sputnik 1, as our future
reconnaissance satellites would reveal a lot more about the USSR than
their reconsats would reveal about the US.
Once the US had set the precedent of letting Sputnik pass overhead
without trying any military action against it, the USSR would have a
harder time complaining about any US satellites passing over the USSR.
The end result was a realization of Eisenhower's "open skies" concept
whereby both countries would have allowed unarmed manned reconnaissance
aircraft to overfly them at will. That idea didn't sit well with the
Soviets at all, as the prelude to Hitler's invasion of the USSR had been
incursions into Soviet airspace by German aircraft pinpointing military
targets to be destroyed when the invasion began.
But reconnaissance satellites seemed a lot less threatening, plus
removed the possibility of having pilots from the other side parachuting
down out of the sky if their aircraft were shot down or had mechanical
problems.
In his book "The Heavens and the Earth - a Political History of the
Space Age" Walter A. McDougall argued that the US _wanted_ the USSR to
orbit the first satellite just so we could set the precedent of not
attacking it as it passed overhead, as the use of reconsats by both
sides favored the US in the amount of new intelligence information that
could be gathered about the USSR over what the Soviets could discover
about the US.

Pat