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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
A pair of scientists funded by ESA are claiming to have observed some
sort of gravitational anomaly by rotating a superconductive ring: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html Although miniscule in size, this gravitomagnetism effect seems to be similar to the frame-dragging effect observed in much larger rotating heavenly bodies. What are the implications of this for our technology? Could this phenomenon be harnessed for useful purposes? We talk about nano-mechanical actuators and switches able to displace or rotate at extraordinarily rapid speeds. Could this behavior be exploited in the service of harnessing gravitomagnetic effects? A material composed of lots of tiny superconductive nano-gyroscopes, perhaps reducing its apparent mass in a gravitational field? Possible? |
#2
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
I was trying to work out what it would be good for if you could
increase its strength by 10000x somehow. You would get gravity control- you'd be able to put parts of the ISS under 1g, or cancel it out over short distances on the Earth, zero-g rooms that kind of thing. Or you could put it in the base of a reentry capsule and do a pure ballistic reentry at 9g, but only feel 1g (since the field would accelerate every part of you evenly). Many cool things would seem to be possible. Trouble is, the field is presumably a dipole, so range would be limited- I don't think you could levitate stuff all the way into space for example. I don't think you could push a vehicle off the Earth with it. Anyway, that's if the effect is real. I'm still betting it's experimental error; it's historically a very difficult area to research in. |
#3
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
Here is the link to their publication:
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0603033 They're claiming 10^-4g (ie. a ten-thousandth of a g) Alright, standard disclaimers (ie. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, must be reproducible, must be thoroughly de-bunked/analyzed/investigated, etc) Just for the sake of engineering conjecture, let's say the science rationale behind this phenomenon is valid. So from an engineering perspective, how would one go about making something useful out of it? In sci-fi TV shows, we've all seen depictions of "field-based propulsion," whereby a vehicle is propelled through space without having to expel some limited onboard supply of propellant to achieve motion. If this gravitomagnetic phenomenon scales up with rpm, and if the 10^-4g was produced with a mere 6500rpm, then how fast and how massive does your superconductive flywheel have to be, in order for your flying car to get off the ground? What rpm would you need to achieve reasonable round-trip time to Mars? |
#4
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
Well, as physicists like to say -- everything's local. To me, this
means that if this phenomenon could achieve levitation, then it would be acting upon local space, and not by "pushing off" another mass like earth's. Besides, consider that gravity has a notoriously much longer range than electromagnetism does. Pluto and other Kuiper objects are orbiting the Sun because its huge gravitational field extends out that range, even though its electromagnetic fields aren't felt much out there. Heck, cosmologists talk about galaxies attracting each other from huge distances away. But it's interesting to muse whether this artificial gravity phenomenon -- if it is indeed valid -- would allow for some kind of new "field-based propulsion" which doesn't rely upon Newtonian action-reaction and expenditure of a limited onboard propellant supply. As for whether or not it's real or experimental error, I'm hoping that other labs will quickly rush to investigate, and either prove or disprove this thing. At least if it's disproven, we can all move on and look for something else. Oh well, here's a videoclip of an interview with Dr Tajmar (Warning: Tajmar comes across as reasonable and low-key, but the interviewer sounds like the stereotypical lamer who hangs out at sci-fi conventions): http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...45907997981867 Anyway, hopefully Tajmar's announcement is noteworthy enough to at least attract the efforts of de-bunkers, so that the question will be resolved one way or the other. |
#5
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
on 26 Mar 2006 00:04:02 -0800, manofsanATyahoo.com sez:
` Here is the link to their publication: ` http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0603033 ` They're claiming 10^-4g (ie. a ten-thousandth of a g) Ah, 10^-4. I wondered; the original article I saw was ambiguous - it said "100 millionths" which could be read as 10^-4 or 10^-8. Well, they may have worked for two years to suppress errors, but I don't know, when you have a high magnetic field in the area of your equipment spinning at 6000rpm, any kind of equipment can suffer weird effects, let alone stuff that's trying to detect gravitational changes. That's a particularly hard type of measurement to do. I guess we'll hear about it soon enough if it's real. Well, let's have a look... looking at the article, if I'm understanding correctly, it is only the mass of the electrons (Cooper pairs) that is being affected? ie, you're down to one part in 1500 of any mass before you start. ` Alright, standard disclaimers (ie. extraordinary claims require ` extraordinary proof, must be reproducible, must be thoroughly ` de-bunked/analyzed/investigated, etc) ` Just for the sake of engineering conjecture, let's say the science ` rationale behind this phenomenon is valid. So from an engineering ` perspective, how would one go about making something useful out of it? ` In sci-fi TV shows, we've all seen depictions of "field-based ` propulsion," whereby a vehicle is propelled through space without ` having to expel some limited onboard supply of propellant to achieve ` motion. ` If this gravitomagnetic phenomenon scales up with rpm, and if the ` 10^-4g was produced with a mere 6500rpm, then how fast and how massive ` does your superconductive flywheel have to be, in order for your flying ` car to get off the ground? ` What rpm would you need to achieve reasonable round-trip time to Mars? -- ================================================== ======================== Pete Vincent Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet. |
#6
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
The force is really to low for anything large. But it will be great
news for ppl trying to understand SR. The experiments can be done in the lab. Its progress. Greg |
#7
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
pete wrote:
Ah, 10^-4. I wondered; the original article I saw was ambiguous - it said "100 millionths" which could be read as 10^-4 or 10^-8. When could one hundred millionths be read as 10^-8? That would one hundred millionth. -- Erik Max Francis && && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis But tell me, who _are_ they, these wanderers ... ? -- Rainer Maria Rilke |
#8
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
Well, when you put it that way, then is it possible that the discovery
is related to this other announcement? http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/10/3/19/1 Since here the magnetic field is affecting the disposition of photons, and since in the ESA experiments the Cooper-pairs are effectively bosons, then is there a correlation between the two measured phenomena? |
#9
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
What I'm wondering is whether this effect would scale up with
increasing RPM. If you could radically increase your RPM to millions of Hertz, then could this perhaps amount to a sizeable fraction of a G. Even if this field only affects the Cooper pairs themselves, if they are affected strongly enough by the accelerative field, perhaps the Cooper pairs themselves would be able to levitate/accelerate the entire gyroscopic mass. And of course, if the gyroscope(s) are themselves attached to some larger object (spacecraft?) then this itself could be levitated/accelerated. Conductors/superconductors are defined by their ability to permit/promote the flow of electrons. I'm curious -- if an electrolyte is defined by its ability to permit the flow of the comparably more massive ions, then is there any such concept of "superelectrolyte" - analogous to a superconductor, but for ions? If such an analogy were possible, would it require superfluidity? I was just trying to think of how this gravity effect -- if real -- could be magnified by using more massive bosons than Cooper-Pairs. Or is the diminutive Cooper-Pair mass actually beneficial in this case, due to greater ease of centripetal acceleration relative to the resultant vacuum polarization yielded? Could someone kindly explain why the superconductive gyroscope with its Cooper Pairs is able to achieve this effect when a regular non-superconductive gyroscope can't? Well, at the very least we now know why Flying Saucers are round - which is so that they can house their high-speed internal superconducting gyroscopes ;P |
#10
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Gravitomagnetism Observed (Tajmar, Matos, ESA)
Oh, I just wanted to post another news link:
http://arstechnica.com/journals/scie...2006/3/27/3334 I liked this article because it paraphrased the whole concept in a unique and better way than the other articles which simply regurgitated the same info verbatim. Some of the follow-up comments were cute too. |
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