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#11
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This Is What the First Lunar Base Could Really Look Like
On Feb 7, 2:14*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Feb 7, 2:17*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 7, 3:49*am, bob haller wrote: On Feb 6, 7:22*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 1, 1:27*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:55:22 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote: On Jan 31, 10:16*am, wrote: "We have seen many concepts, but this is the most realistic plan yet for humanity's first Moon Base. It will be more efficient and cheaper to build than any other alternative, as it uses 3D printing to quickly transform raw lunar soil into habitable domes. Also? It looks awesome. The lunar soil structure will provide both radiation and temperature insulation. Inside, a lightweight pressurized inflatable with the same dome shape will be the living environment for the first human Moon settlers." See: http://gizmodo.com/5980534/this-is-w...-base-could-re... Why not 99.9% underground? Are you suggesting that TBMs can't function inside of our moon? Underground is best on the moon. In case of fast flying fragments from incoming, I'd want to be fully underground in my lined habitat. TBMs are already designed for digging into the moon. *These TBMs are even becoming mostly robotic. Nothing about our moon is insurmountable, at least once we have those actual fly-by-rocket landers we can trust to get 60+ tonnes safely to/ from our moon. TBMs require continious service by crews of highly skilled workers continiously servicing the machines and conveyors to get the drilled waste out of the hole Robotic TBMs can dig for up to a km before needing attention, though not that a service crew couldn't be there as well because, our NASA/ Apollo era proved how inert and passive the moon actually is, as well as how 100% failsafe their fly-by-rocket lander were. A 1 km tunnel cut into the paramagnetic basalt crust of our moon is a pretty good start, especially once the tunnel airlock is established. Why are you opposed to exploiting our moon? TBS are not practical. Far bettern to cut and cover. easy access, elminates the TBM altogether. plus TBMs dont tunnel well in loose or non consolidated soil. Since the moon had no water *the crust probably isnt consolidated. why make a easy job hard? open pit minining or cut and cover Most of the physically dark lunar crust is made of 100% fused and nicely paramagnetic basalt, plus likely carbonado that's also paramagnetic. A modern TBM would function terrific within the moon, and it could be solar or nuclear powered. Obviously this is all way over your K-12 head. Sorry about that. The moon is already extensively open pit excavated as is. It's called cratering. An incoming rock can easily create a km deep pit, not to mention creating thousands of secondary shards that would be lethal as hell to anything you've suggested thus far. |
#12
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This Is What the First Lunar Base Could Really Look Like
On Feb 7, 6:35*pm, Brad Guth wrote:
On Feb 7, 2:14*pm, bob haller wrote: On Feb 7, 2:17*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 7, 3:49*am, bob haller wrote: On Feb 6, 7:22*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 1, 1:27*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:55:22 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote: On Jan 31, 10:16*am, wrote: "We have seen many concepts, but this is the most realistic plan yet for humanity's first Moon Base. It will be more efficient and cheaper to build than any other alternative, as it uses 3D printing to quickly transform raw lunar soil into habitable domes. Also? It looks awesome. The lunar soil structure will provide both radiation and temperature insulation. Inside, a lightweight pressurized inflatable with the same dome shape will be the living environment for the first human Moon settlers." See: http://gizmodo.com/5980534/this-is-w...-base-could-re... Why not 99.9% underground? Are you suggesting that TBMs can't function inside of our moon? Underground is best on the moon. In case of fast flying fragments from incoming, I'd want to be fully underground in my lined habitat. TBMs are already designed for digging into the moon. *These TBMs are even becoming mostly robotic. Nothing about our moon is insurmountable, at least once we have those actual fly-by-rocket landers we can trust to get 60+ tonnes safely to/ from our moon. TBMs require continious service by crews of highly skilled workers continiously servicing the machines and conveyors to get the drilled waste out of the hole Robotic TBMs can dig for up to a km before needing attention, though not that a service crew couldn't be there as well because, our NASA/ Apollo era proved how inert and passive the moon actually is, as well as how 100% failsafe their fly-by-rocket lander were. A 1 km tunnel cut into the paramagnetic basalt crust of our moon is a pretty good start, especially once the tunnel airlock is established. Why are you opposed to exploiting our moon? TBS are not practical. Far bettern to cut and cover. easy access, elminates the TBM altogether. plus TBMs dont tunnel well in loose or non consolidated soil. Since the moon had no water *the crust probably isnt consolidated. why make a easy job hard? open pit minining or cut and cover Most of the physically dark lunar crust is made of 100% fused and nicely paramagnetic basalt, plus likely carbonado that's also paramagnetic. A modern TBM would function terrific within the moon, and it could be solar or nuclear powered. Obviously this is all way over your K-12 head. *Sorry about that. The moon is already extensively open pit excavated as is. It's called cratering. *An incoming rock can easily create a km deep pit, not to mention creating thousands of secondary shards that would be lethal as hell to anything you've suggested thus far. ahh there are some shows about TBMs and alternatives for deep mining and boring tunnels. the maintence labor for all of the equiptement is unreal, drill a day, spend the next day in maintence mode replacing cutters in cramped areas, breakdowns of the conveyors used to carry the cuttings to the exit, sometimes they drill from the surface and pump in concrete grout to stabilize soft strata. Obviously this is all way over your K-12 head. sorry about that,, automating all this for minimial maintence wil be difficult to impossible.... |
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This Is What the First Lunar Base Could Really Look Like
On Feb 7, 5:41*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Feb 7, 6:35*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 7, 2:14*pm, bob haller wrote: On Feb 7, 2:17*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 7, 3:49*am, bob haller wrote: On Feb 6, 7:22*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 1, 1:27*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:55:22 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote: On Jan 31, 10:16*am, wrote: "We have seen many concepts, but this is the most realistic plan yet for humanity's first Moon Base. It will be more efficient and cheaper to build than any other alternative, as it uses 3D printing to quickly transform raw lunar soil into habitable domes. Also? It looks awesome. The lunar soil structure will provide both radiation and temperature insulation. Inside, a lightweight pressurized inflatable with the same dome shape will be the living environment for the first human Moon settlers." See: http://gizmodo.com/5980534/this-is-w...-base-could-re... Why not 99.9% underground? Are you suggesting that TBMs can't function inside of our moon? Underground is best on the moon. In case of fast flying fragments from incoming, I'd want to be fully underground in my lined habitat. TBMs are already designed for digging into the moon. *These TBMs are even becoming mostly robotic. Nothing about our moon is insurmountable, at least once we have those actual fly-by-rocket landers we can trust to get 60+ tonnes safely to/ from our moon. TBMs require continious service by crews of highly skilled workers continiously servicing the machines and conveyors to get the drilled waste out of the hole Robotic TBMs can dig for up to a km before needing attention, though not that a service crew couldn't be there as well because, our NASA/ Apollo era proved how inert and passive the moon actually is, as well as how 100% failsafe their fly-by-rocket lander were. A 1 km tunnel cut into the paramagnetic basalt crust of our moon is a pretty good start, especially once the tunnel airlock is established. Why are you opposed to exploiting our moon? TBS are not practical. Far bettern to cut and cover. easy access, elminates the TBM altogether. plus TBMs dont tunnel well in loose or non consolidated soil. Since the moon had no water *the crust probably isnt consolidated. why make a easy job hard? open pit minining or cut and cover Most of the physically dark lunar crust is made of 100% fused and nicely paramagnetic basalt, plus likely carbonado that's also paramagnetic. A modern TBM would function terrific within the moon, and it could be solar or nuclear powered. Obviously this is all way over your K-12 head. *Sorry about that. The moon is already extensively open pit excavated as is. It's called cratering. *An incoming rock can easily create a km deep pit, not to mention creating thousands of secondary shards that would be lethal as hell to anything you've suggested thus far. ahh there are some shows about TBMs and alternatives for deep mining and boring tunnels. the maintence labor for all of the equiptement is unreal, drill a day, spend the next day in maintence mode replacing cutters in cramped areas, breakdowns of the conveyors used to carry the cuttings to the exit, sometimes they drill from the surface and pump in concrete grout to stabilize soft strata. Obviously this is all way over your K-12 head. sorry about that,, automating all this for minimial maintence will be difficult to impossible.... Obviously the initial hundred billion dollar TBM intended for the moon would have more rock cutting endurance, and no reason why not having some crew in addition to a cache of robotic cutter replacements. Once the TBMs get 100 meters into the crust, it gets easier and cheaper to keep it going. We'll need a thousand of them, all digging at the same time. |
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This Is What the First Lunar Base Could Really Look Like
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:14:00 PM UTC-8, bob haller wrote:
On Feb 7, 2:17*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 7, 3:49*am, bob haller wrote: On Feb 6, 7:22*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 1, 1:27*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:55:22 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote: On Jan 31, 10:16*am, wrote: "We have seen many concepts, but this is the most realistic plan yet for humanity's first Moon Base. It will be more efficient and cheaper to build than any other alternative, as it uses 3D printing to quickly transform raw lunar soil into habitable domes. Also? It looks awesome. The lunar soil structure will provide both radiation and temperature insulation. Inside, a lightweight pressurized inflatable with the same dome shape will be the living environment for the first human Moon settlers." See: http://gizmodo.com/5980534/this-is-w...-base-could-re... Why not 99.9% underground? Are you suggesting that TBMs can't function inside of our moon? Underground is best on the moon. In case of fast flying fragments from incoming, I'd want to be fully underground in my lined habitat. TBMs are already designed for digging into the moon. *These TBMs are even becoming mostly robotic. Nothing about our moon is insurmountable, at least once we have those actual fly-by-rocket landers we can trust to get 60+ tonnes safely to/ from our moon. TBMs require continious service by crews of highly skilled workers continiously servicing the machines and conveyors to get the drilled waste out of the hole Robotic TBMs can dig for up to a km before needing attention, though not that a service crew couldn't be there as well because, our NASA/ Apollo era proved how inert and passive the moon actually is, as well as how 100% failsafe their fly-by-rocket lander were. A 1 km tunnel cut into the paramagnetic basalt crust of our moon is a pretty good start, especially once the tunnel airlock is established. Why are you opposed to exploiting our moon? TBS are not practical. Far bettern to cut and cover. easy access, elminates the TBM altogether. plus TBMs dont tunnel well in loose or non consolidated soil. Since the moon had no water the crust probably isnt consolidated. why make a easy job hard? open pit minining or cut and cover That is a good and valid point. I wonder how the ground temp is at 30 meters down in the Moon? Another search;-) |
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This Is What the First Lunar Base Could Really Look Like
On Feb 8, 5:23*pm, Nun Giver wrote:
On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:14:00 PM UTC-8, bob haller wrote: On Feb 7, 2:17*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 7, 3:49*am, bob haller wrote: On Feb 6, 7:22*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 1, 1:27*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:55:22 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote: On Jan 31, 10:16*am, wrote: "We have seen many concepts, but this is the most realistic plan yet for humanity's first Moon Base. It will be more efficient and cheaper to build than any other alternative, as it uses 3D printing to quickly transform raw lunar soil into habitable domes. Also? It looks awesome. The lunar soil structure will provide both radiation and temperature insulation. Inside, a lightweight pressurized inflatable with the same dome shape will be the living environment for the first human Moon settlers." See: http://gizmodo.com/5980534/this-is-w...-base-could-re... Why not 99.9% underground? Are you suggesting that TBMs can't function inside of our moon? Underground is best on the moon. In case of fast flying fragments from incoming, I'd want to be fully underground in my lined habitat. TBMs are already designed for digging into the moon. *These TBMs are even becoming mostly robotic. Nothing about our moon is insurmountable, at least once we have those actual fly-by-rocket landers we can trust to get 60+ tonnes safely to/ from our moon. TBMs require continious service by crews of highly skilled workers continiously servicing the machines and conveyors to get the drilled waste out of the hole Robotic TBMs can dig for up to a km before needing attention, though not that a service crew couldn't be there as well because, our NASA/ Apollo era proved how inert and passive the moon actually is, as well as how 100% failsafe their fly-by-rocket lander were. A 1 km tunnel cut into the paramagnetic basalt crust of our moon is a pretty good start, especially once the tunnel airlock is established. Why are you opposed to exploiting our moon? TBS are not practical. Far bettern to cut and cover. easy access, elminates the TBM altogether. plus TBMs dont tunnel well in loose or non consolidated soil. Since the moon had no water *the crust probably isnt consolidated. why make a easy job hard? open pit minining or cut and cover That is a good and valid point. I wonder how the ground temp is at 30 meters down in the Moon? Another search;-) It's probably close to averaging -0- F at no deeper than 10 meters deep, and it shouldn't have any problems reaching 70 F (day or night) at 100 km deep. The R-factor of lunar regolith (at minimum 10 meters deep) is none too shabby, and thermal conductance or coefficient of its paramagnetic basalt shouldn't be any different than here on Earth, except that our basalt isn't nearly as paramagnetic. |
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This Is What the First Lunar Base Could Really Look Like
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 4:27:36 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote:
On Feb 8, 5:23*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:14:00 PM UTC-8, bob haller wrote: On Feb 7, 2:17*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 7, 3:49*am, bob haller wrote: On Feb 6, 7:22*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 1, 1:27*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:55:22 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote: On Jan 31, 10:16*am, wrote: "We have seen many concepts, but this is the most realistic plan yet for humanity's first Moon Base. It will be more efficient and cheaper to build than any other alternative, as it uses 3D printing to quickly transform raw lunar soil into habitable domes. Also? It looks awesome. The lunar soil structure will provide both radiation and temperature insulation. Inside, a lightweight pressurized inflatable with the same dome shape will be the living environment for the first human Moon settlers." See: http://gizmodo.com/5980534/this-is-w...-base-could-re... Why not 99.9% underground? Are you suggesting that TBMs can't function inside of our moon? Underground is best on the moon. In case of fast flying fragments from incoming, I'd want to be fully underground in my lined habitat. TBMs are already designed for digging into the moon. *These TBMs are even becoming mostly robotic. Nothing about our moon is insurmountable, at least once we have those actual fly-by-rocket landers we can trust to get 60+ tonnes safely to/ from our moon. TBMs require continious service by crews of highly skilled workers continiously servicing the machines and conveyors to get the drilled waste out of the hole Robotic TBMs can dig for up to a km before needing attention, though not that a service crew couldn't be there as well because, our NASA/ Apollo era proved how inert and passive the moon actually is, as well as how 100% failsafe their fly-by-rocket lander were. A 1 km tunnel cut into the paramagnetic basalt crust of our moon is a pretty good start, especially once the tunnel airlock is established. Why are you opposed to exploiting our moon? TBS are not practical. Far bettern to cut and cover. easy access, elminates the TBM altogether. plus TBMs dont tunnel well in loose or non consolidated soil. Since the moon had no water *the crust probably isnt consolidated. why make a easy job hard? open pit minining or cut and cover That is a good and valid point. I wonder how the ground temp is at 30 meters down in the Moon? Another search;-) It's probably close to averaging -0- F at no deeper than 10 meters deep, and it shouldn't have any problems reaching 70 F (day or night) at 100 km deep. The R-factor of lunar regolith (at minimum 10 meters deep) is none too shabby, and thermal conductance or coefficient of its paramagnetic basalt shouldn't be any different than here on Earth, except that our basalt isn't nearly as paramagnetic. It surely would average out the temp at some depth. A 100 kM is too deep. A 100 meters at most in the middle decades of development. Ten meters is about the right design goal for starters. Maybe even less if there is enough water ice at the poles. A water lining due to a formed plastic tank that stands between the insulation and the habitat zone. |
#17
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This Is What the First Lunar Base Could Really Look Like
On Feb 9, 5:24*pm, Nun Giver wrote:
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 4:27:36 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 8, 5:23*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:14:00 PM UTC-8, bob haller wrote: On Feb 7, 2:17*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 7, 3:49*am, bob haller wrote: On Feb 6, 7:22*pm, Brad Guth wrote: On Feb 1, 1:27*pm, Nun Giver wrote: On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:55:22 PM UTC-8, Brad Guth wrote: On Jan 31, 10:16*am, wrote: "We have seen many concepts, but this is the most realistic plan yet for humanity's first Moon Base. It will be more efficient and cheaper to build than any other alternative, as it uses 3D printing to quickly transform raw lunar soil into habitable domes. Also? It looks awesome. The lunar soil structure will provide both radiation and temperature insulation. Inside, a lightweight pressurized inflatable with the same dome shape will be the living environment for the first human Moon settlers." See: http://gizmodo.com/5980534/this-is-w...-base-could-re... Why not 99.9% underground? Are you suggesting that TBMs can't function inside of our moon? Underground is best on the moon. In case of fast flying fragments from incoming, I'd want to be fully underground in my lined habitat. TBMs are already designed for digging into the moon. *These TBMs are even becoming mostly robotic. Nothing about our moon is insurmountable, at least once we have those actual fly-by-rocket landers we can trust to get 60+ tonnes safely to/ from our moon. TBMs require continious service by crews of highly skilled workers continiously servicing the machines and conveyors to get the drilled waste out of the hole Robotic TBMs can dig for up to a km before needing attention, though not that a service crew couldn't be there as well because, our NASA/ Apollo era proved how inert and passive the moon actually is, as well as how 100% failsafe their fly-by-rocket lander were. A 1 km tunnel cut into the paramagnetic basalt crust of our moon is a pretty good start, especially once the tunnel airlock is established. Why are you opposed to exploiting our moon? TBS are not practical. Far bettern to cut and cover. easy access, elminates the TBM altogether. plus TBMs dont tunnel well in loose or non consolidated soil. Since the moon had no water *the crust probably isnt consolidated. why make a easy job hard? open pit minining or cut and cover That is a good and valid point. I wonder how the ground temp is at 30 meters down in the Moon? Another search;-) It's probably close to averaging -0- F at no deeper than 10 meters deep, and it shouldn't have any problems reaching 70 F (day or night) at 100 km deep. *The R-factor of lunar regolith (at minimum 10 meters deep) is none too shabby, and thermal conductance or coefficient of its paramagnetic basalt shouldn't be any different than here on Earth, except that our basalt isn't nearly as paramagnetic. It surely would average out the temp at some depth. A 100 kM is too deep. A 100 meters at most in the middle decades of development. Ten meters is about the right design goal for starters. Maybe even less if there is enough water ice at the poles. A water lining due to a formed plastic tank that stands between the insulation and the habitat zone. It still has a very hot 1000 km core of perhaps at least 1200 K, plus some solar tidal issues and even a bit of the same from Earth that's gradually modulating the moon. |
#18
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This Is What the First Lunar Base Could Really Look Like
On Jan 31, 10:16*am, wrote:
"We have seen many concepts, but this is the most realistic plan yet for humanity's first Moon Base. It will be more efficient and cheaper to build than any other alternative, as it uses 3D printing to quickly transform raw lunar soil into habitable domes. Also? It looks awesome. The lunar soil structure will provide both radiation and temperature insulation. Inside, a lightweight pressurized inflatable with the same dome shape will be the living environment for the first human Moon settlers." See: http://gizmodo.com/5980534/this-is-w...-base-could-re... Any surface lunar base is at risk from gamma, local X-rays and from impacts, not to mention day/night extreme thermal issues. Terraforming the moon underground: It's probably close to averaging 0 F (255 K) at no greater than 10 meters deep, and it shouldn't have any problems reaching 70 F (day or night) at 100 km deep or possibly as shallow as 10 km. The R-factor of lunar regolith (lose basalt rock and loads of crystal dry dust that’s at minimum 10 meters deep) is none too shabby, and otherwise the geothermal conductance and/or heat transfer coefficient (aka geothermal gradient) of its paramagnetic basalt crust of 3.5 g/cm3 density shouldn't be significantly any different than here on Earth, except that our terrestrial basalt isn't nearly as paramagnetic or much less offering carbonado, and the core heat of Earth being 7000+ K as opposed to only 1000 K of our moon. Supposedly there is only a wee little bit of lunar granite to deal with, but the samples thus far are inconsistent in their composition. A new interpretation is that all-inclusively the geothermal outflux of Earth (including geothermal vents and volcanic contributions) is getting rid of roughly 128 mw/m2, whereas our moon is supposedly only getting rid of as little as 16 mw/m2 (an 8th as much). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient “Geothermal gradient is the rate of increasing temperature with respect to increasing depth in the Earth's interior.” The "Igneous Petrology" of our moon and Venus should each be unique and considerably different than Earth. “The composition of igneous rocks and minerals can be determined via a variety of methods of varying ease, cost, and complexity. The simplest method is observation of hand samples with the naked eye and/or with a hand lens. This can be used to gauge the general mineralogical composition of the rock, which gives an insight into the composition.” Unfortunately, the rocks returned from our moon were entirely similar to those of terrestrial rocks. Of course there’s all sorts of actual paramagnetic basalt moon rock to be found on Earth, because there should be at least a thousand teratonnes of it, whereas naturally most of which ended up in oceans and otherwise as having meteor and obvious melt indications that are entirely quite different than local volcanic spewed basalts. “A more precise but still relatively inexpensive way to identify minerals (and thereby the bulk chemical composition of the rock) with a petrographic microscope. These microscopes have polarizing plates, filters, and a conoscopic lens that allow the user to measure a large number of crystallographic properties.” Contributor “Wretch Fossil” actually has a very good “petrographic microscope” and multiple resources plus talent of interpreting such to go along with it. Sadly this technology and its expertise of interpreting is being ignored by those of authority that do not want outsiders having a public say about anything. So, once again, it really doesn’t matter whatever level of modern applied technology and expertise we have to offer, because it’s only going to be topic/author stalked and systematically trashed by those of Usenet/newsgroup authority that have multiple mainstream issues at risk. TBMs cutting their tunnels into the interior of our moon should prove both interesting and rewarding in terms of extracting rare and valuable elements, not to mention creating the very cozy and safe habitat potential that’s opened up for multiple uses. Unfortunately this method can not be applied on such a geodynamically active planet like Venus that has such a thin crust and way more primordial core energy outflux of perhaps 20.5 w/m2 as contributing way more geothermal energy than any other planet or moon has to offer, although older and cooler planets or any number of their moons (except for Io that’s averaging 2 w/m2) should be somewhat similar to terraforming the cozy interior of our moon. http://www.mps.mpg.de/solar-system-s...olcanism_5.pdf http://commercialspace.pbworks.com/f/Public+ILN.pdf The likely 5e15~1e16 tonnes worth of lose surface rock and dust (plus accumulated deposits) remaining on the naked surface of our moon (not including another good portion as having been dislodged and deposited on Earth) is a direct result of the thousands of significant impacts, and especially as a result of its South polar crater of 2500 km diameter. Liquefied basalt as returning fallout from such truly horrific impacts that should have extensively solidified and fused upon contact with the relatively cool basalt surface, as such should have been quite obvious and highly distinctive if such exposed lunar bedrock samples had been return to Earth. Sadly, no such samples or even unique meteorites ever materialized from our NASA/Apollo era that found our naked moon as instead so unusually reflective and UV, X-ray and gamma inert as well as hardly the least bit dusty, and what little crystal dry dust there was seemed to offer terrific surface tension and clumping for terrific footing and traction like no place else. |
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