Discussion on sci.space.science

Jeff Findley and I have been having on sci.space.science a discussion
about water on Mars and terraforming Mars, that I appreciate very much.
Nobody else is contributing to the discussion, possibly because some of
you have given up on sci.space.science.

So if you haven't checked on sci.space.science for a while, I encourage
you to go check it out. And if you want to contribute to the discussion,
that would be great.


Alain Fournier

Alain Fournier wrote on Wed, 1 Aug 2018
19:43:57 -0400:


Jeff Findley and I have been having on sci.space.science a discussion
about water on Mars and terraforming Mars, that I appreciate very much.
Nobody else is contributing to the discussion, possibly because some of
you have given up on sci.space.science.

So if you haven't checked on sci.space.science for a while, I encourage
you to go check it out. And if you want to contribute to the discussion,
that would be great.


All well and good, but it doesn't seem to let me post there, which is
why I gave up on it way back when.


--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:14:49 AM UTC-4, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Alain Fournier wrote on Wed, 1 Aug 2018
19:43:57 -0400:


Jeff Findley and I have been having on sci.space.science a discussion
about water on Mars and terraforming Mars, that I appreciate very much.
Nobody else is contributing to the discussion, possibly because some of
you have given up on sci.space.science.

So if you haven't checked on sci.space.science for a while, I encourage
you to go check it out. And if you want to contribute to the discussion,
that would be great.


All well and good, but it doesn't seem to let me post there, which is
why I gave up on it way back when.

Terraforming Mars is one of those religious arguments, anyhow.

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:14:49 AM UTC-4, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Alain Fournier wrote on Wed, 1 Aug 2018
19:43:57 -0400:


Jeff Findley and I have been having on sci.space.science a discussion
about water on Mars and terraforming Mars, that I appreciate very much.
Nobody else is contributing to the discussion, possibly because some of
you have given up on sci.space.science.

So if you haven't checked on sci.space.science for a while, I encourage
you to go check it out. And if you want to contribute to the discussion,
that would be great.


All well and good, but it doesn't seem to let me post there, which is
why I gave up on it way back when.

Terraforming Mars is one of those religious arguments, anyhow.

True. But my guess is that Mars will prove lifeless. If that's the
case, who's going to object to terraforming a lifeless planet?

Nothing fundamental in physics to stop humans from doing it. It will
surely take centuries or more to do it, but there should be more than
enough material in the solar system to do it. Mostly Mars needs
volatiles to recreate a thicker atmosphere. Once you get it up to 5
psi, you can walk around in breathing masks and (relatively) normal
clothing.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

Jeff Findley wrote on Thu, 2 Aug 2018
07:34:20 -0400:

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:14:49 AM UTC-4, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Alain Fournier wrote on Wed, 1 Aug 2018
19:43:57 -0400:


Jeff Findley and I have been having on sci.space.science a discussion
about water on Mars and terraforming Mars, that I appreciate very much.
Nobody else is contributing to the discussion, possibly because some of
you have given up on sci.space.science.

So if you haven't checked on sci.space.science for a while, I encourage
you to go check it out. And if you want to contribute to the discussion,
that would be great.


All well and good, but it doesn't seem to let me post there, which is
why I gave up on it way back when.

Terraforming Mars is one of those religious arguments, anyhow.

True. But my guess is that Mars will prove lifeless. If that's the
case, who's going to object to terraforming a lifeless planet?

Nothing fundamental in physics to stop humans from doing it. It will
surely take centuries or more to do it, but there should be more than
enough material in the solar system to do it. Mostly Mars needs
volatiles to recreate a thicker atmosphere. Once you get it up to 5
psi, you can walk around in breathing masks and (relatively) normal
clothing.


I've seen articles recently where NASA is apparently claiming that it
is not possible to terraform Mars. I haven't actually read the
articles to see what their reasoning is, but the only reason I can
think of is that it just won't hold enough atmosphere, no matter how
hard you shovel stuff in (which seems odd to me).


--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."
-- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer

In article ,
says...


I've seen articles recently where NASA is apparently claiming that it
is not possible to terraform Mars. I haven't actually read the
articles to see what their reasoning is, but the only reason I can
think of is that it just won't hold enough atmosphere, no matter how
hard you shovel stuff in (which seems odd to me).

They're saying it doesn't have enough CO2 locked up at the poles that
you can liberate in order to produce enough pressure to heat up the
planet to livable levels. Their assumption, of course, is that you're
not adding any external mass to Mars. This is, IMHO, a poor assumption
given terraforming timescales.

Jeff

--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 7:34:27 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Terraforming Mars is one of those religious arguments, anyhow.

True. But my guess is that Mars will prove lifeless. If that's the
case, who's going to object to terraforming a lifeless planet?

Nothing fundamental in physics to stop humans from doing it. It will
surely take centuries or more to do it, but there should be more than
enough material in the solar system to do it. Mostly Mars needs
volatiles to recreate a thicker atmosphere. Once you get it up to 5
psi, you can walk around in breathing masks and (relatively) normal
clothing.

I forget how many octillion tons of oxygen it would take, but the
problem is getting it there in the needed quantities and then keeping
it there. Apparently nearly all of its atmosphere (even assuming it was
Earthlike at one time) has long since departed due to the effects of
gravity and solar radiation.

Le Aug/2/2018 Ã* 11:41 PM, Scott M. Kozel a écritÂ*:
On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 7:34:27 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Terraforming Mars is one of those religious arguments, anyhow.

True. But my guess is that Mars will prove lifeless. If that's the
case, who's going to object to terraforming a lifeless planet?

Nothing fundamental in physics to stop humans from doing it. It will
surely take centuries or more to do it, but there should be more than
enough material in the solar system to do it. Mostly Mars needs
volatiles to recreate a thicker atmosphere. Once you get it up to 5
psi, you can walk around in breathing masks and (relatively) normal
clothing.

I forget how many octillion tons of oxygen it would take, but the
problem is getting it there in the needed quantities and then keeping
it there.

Not many octillions, less than a trillionth of an octillion tons. An
octillion is a somewhat large number (that's using the short scale, the
long scale would be even worse). But yes, it is true that many trillion
tons of O2 is a lot of O2.

Keeping it there isn't really the problem. It will be blown away by
solar wind as Mars' original atmosphere was. But that happens on a time
scale of millions of years. If you can't replenish it on that time
scale, it basically means that you couldn't put it there in the first
place. No one is going to start adding O2 to Mars with the plan of
having completed the job in a million years.


Alain Fournier

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 7:34:27 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Terraforming Mars is one of those religious arguments, anyhow.

True. But my guess is that Mars will prove lifeless. If that's the
case, who's going to object to terraforming a lifeless planet?

Nothing fundamental in physics to stop humans from doing it. It will
surely take centuries or more to do it, but there should be more than
enough material in the solar system to do it. Mostly Mars needs
volatiles to recreate a thicker atmosphere. Once you get it up to 5
psi, you can walk around in breathing masks and (relatively) normal
clothing.

I forget how many octillion tons of oxygen it would take, but the
problem is getting it there in the needed quantities and then keeping
it there. Apparently nearly all of its atmosphere (even assuming it was
Earthlike at one time) has long since departed due to the effects of
gravity and solar radiation.

Keeping it there isn't much of a problem. In the short term (hundreds
of thousands of years) it won't lose enough to matter. A few more
Kuiper belt objects would make up for the loss.

In the long term, you put a giant electromagnet between Mars and the sun
in order to produce an artificial magnetic field to mimic the protection
earth's magnetic field gives it. Note from above this gives you
hundreds of thousands of years to perfect that tech and scale it up to
sufficient size.

The arguments against terraforming Mars sound a lot like the myriad of
arguments against heavier than air travel before the Wright Brothers
successfully demonstrated that it was possible. Yet a few weeks ago, I
flew to Shanghai and back for a week long business trip which is a 12
hour time zone difference from where I live, so roughly half way around
the planet. And that was only a bit over one hundred years later.
Terraforming is on a much bigger timescale, so we have a much longer
time frame to perfect the tech necessary to complete the task.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

Fred J. McCall wrote on Thu, 02 Aug 2018 01:14:48
-0700:

Alain Fournier wrote on Wed, 1 Aug 2018
19:43:57 -0400:


Jeff Findley and I have been having on sci.space.science a discussion
about water on Mars and terraforming Mars, that I appreciate very much.
Nobody else is contributing to the discussion, possibly because some of
you have given up on sci.space.science.

So if you haven't checked on sci.space.science for a while, I encourage
you to go check it out. And if you want to contribute to the discussion,
that would be great.


All well and good, but it doesn't seem to let me post there, which is
why I gave up on it way back when.


OK, I take it back. It did eventually show up, so I guess it's
working again.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw