Ion drive for aircraft imminent.

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

And before anyone mentions that a glider can stay aloft pretty much "all
day" by riding thermals, yes it can. But, if you're spending all day
searching for the best thermals, you're not spending any time going from
point A to point B, so they're not terribly useful as transportation.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

On 14/11/16 09:55, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

Firstly, they are extremely advanced airplanes: commercial
airliners often take /decades/ to catch up with the technology
used in gliders, e.g. composites, wingtips, and lightning
strike protection.

Secondly, neither winches nor tugs will take a glider up
to 10k/20k/30k/ft (40k/50kft in rare cases!) - and can't
even get there on their own! It is unusual for a tug to take
a glider above 3kft over here; 2kft is the normal release
height.

Finally, you have too little imagination about how to launch
a glider. Gravity, bungees, and (in true Fred Flintstone style)
horses are also used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la3rb9LfG0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxbdXqEvxE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86rOfjhsIIM

Now, what was that about "up there" and "without an engine"?

On 14/11/16 11:02, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

False. See my other reply for videos of examples.

(But in Europe winches are more common than tugs, and
a typical release height is 2kft, but higher is possible.
A normal tug release height is 2kft, sometimes 3kft)


And before anyone mentions that a glider can stay aloft pretty much "all
day" by riding thermals, yes it can. But, if you're spending all day
searching for the best thermals, you're not spending any time going from
point A to point B, so they're not terribly useful as transportation.

True, but they are a damn sight more fun

(Besides, ISTR sailing ships seem to have been
used for transportation, even though they were
sometimes becalmed )

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 09:55, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

Firstly, they are extremely advanced airplanes:


Nope. No engine means they aren't an airplane. An airplane is a
fixed wing heavier than air powered vehicle.


Secondly, neither winches nor tugs will take a glider up
to 10k/20k/30k/ft (40k/50kft in rare cases!) - and can't
even get there on their own! It is unusual for a tug to take
a glider above 3kft over here; 2kft is the normal release
height.


So?


Finally, you have too little imagination about how to launch
a glider. Gravity, bungees, and (in true Fred Flintstone style)
horses are also used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la3rb9LfG0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxbdXqEvxE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86rOfjhsIIM

Now, what was that about "up there" and "without an engine"?


Yes, you can build a glider, move it to the launch site by ox cart,
and throw it off a cliff. You can lift it with balloons. You can
even try farting magic pixie dust on them. But that's not how they're
usually transported and launched.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 11:02, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

False. See my other reply for videos of examples.

(But in Europe winches are more common than tugs, and
a typical release height is 2kft, but higher is possible.
A normal tug release height is 2kft, sometimes 3kft)


And before anyone mentions that a glider can stay aloft pretty much "all
day" by riding thermals, yes it can. But, if you're spending all day
searching for the best thermals, you're not spending any time going from
point A to point B, so they're not terribly useful as transportation.

True, but they are a damn sight more fun

(Besides, ISTR sailing ships seem to have been
used for transportation, even though they were
sometimes becalmed )


'Becalmed in a glider means you land. Then you have to figure out how
to get it back up in the air again. And you'd better have places to
land all along the way.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

On 14/11/16 12:54, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 11:02, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

False. See my other reply for videos of examples.

(But in Europe winches are more common than tugs, and
a typical release height is 2kft, but higher is possible.
A normal tug release height is 2kft, sometimes 3kft)


And before anyone mentions that a glider can stay aloft pretty much "all
day" by riding thermals, yes it can. But, if you're spending all day
searching for the best thermals, you're not spending any time going from
point A to point B, so they're not terribly useful as transportation.

True, but they are a damn sight more fun

(Besides, ISTR sailing ships seem to have been
used for transportation, even though they were
sometimes becalmed )


'Becalmed in a glider means you land. Then you have to figure out how
to get it back up in the air again. And you'd better have places to
land all along the way.

Standard operating procedu pick a field, pluck off the wings,
put glider in trailer, go home. Also many gliders have "get
out of trouble" engines, but they expect not to use them.

But the point is not whether gliders are practical means
of transport (they aren't), but whether you need engines
to go up. (You don't - unless you count the sun as an engine
)

On 14/11/16 12:52, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 09:55, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

Firstly, they are extremely advanced airplanes:


Nope. No engine means they aren't an airplane. An airplane is a
fixed wing heavier than air powered vehicle.

That might be /your/ definition, but it is only valid
in a Tweedledum-and-Tweedledee sense. If you want to
converse with other people, it helps to use words in
a standard way. The first google result gives:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/airplane
airplane
noun
1. a heavier-than-air aircraft kept aloft by the
upward thrust exerted by the passing air on its
fixed wings and driven by propellers, jet propulsion,
etc.
2. any similar heavier-than-air aircraft, as a
glider or helicopter.


Secondly, neither winches nor tugs will take a glider up
to 10k/20k/30k/ft (40k/50kft in rare cases!) - and can't
even get there on their own! It is unusual for a tug to take
a glider above 3kft over here; 2kft is the normal release
height.


So?

It disproves your contention that aircraft need engines
to go up.


Finally, you have too little imagination about how to launch
a glider. Gravity, bungees, and (in true Fred Flintstone style)
horses are also used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la3rb9LfG0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxbdXqEvxE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86rOfjhsIIM

Now, what was that about "up there" and "without an engine"?


Yes, you can build a glider, move it to the launch site by ox cart,
and throw it off a cliff. You can lift it with balloons. You can
even try farting magic pixie dust on them. But that's not how they're
usually transported and launched.

True, and balloons have been used, but I'm skeptical
about pixie dust. But those are separate points not
related to whether you need engines to go up.

In article ,
says...

On 14/11/16 11:02, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

False. See my other reply for videos of examples.

"Gravity, bungees, and (in true Fred Flintstone style)
horses are also used."

In other words a bio-mechanical engine and to examples of converting
potential energy to kinetic energy. So, a glider still can't be
launched without inputting some sort of energy which comes from
somewhere. I suppose a large headwind might suffice, if you like taking
off backwards with respect to the ground.

(But in Europe winches are more common than tugs, and
a typical release height is 2kft, but higher is possible.
A normal tug release height is 2kft, sometimes 3kft)


And before anyone mentions that a glider can stay aloft pretty much "all
day" by riding thermals, yes it can. But, if you're spending all day
searching for the best thermals, you're not spending any time going from
point A to point B, so they're not terribly useful as transportation.

True, but they are a damn sight more fun

(Besides, ISTR sailing ships seem to have been
used for transportation, even though they were
sometimes becalmed )

Fun is not a practical transportation device. It's awfully hard to get
a glider to fly arbitrary routes thousands of miles long. It's trivial
with a jet airliner.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

On 14/11/16 18:37, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 14/11/16 11:02, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

Tom Gardner wrote:

On 14/11/16 02:21, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:


Aircraft engines don't lift anything.


Of course they do. It's that whole Lift/Drag thing. Remove the
engines and airplanes don't go up.

Except when they do, and that can be higher than commercial
airliners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...record#Gliders


Gliders aren't airplanes and they don't get up there without something
with an engine.

True. Whether it is a tow plane (like seems common in the US), a motor
on a winch for a cable launch (common in Europe, or so I'm told), or
even "self tow" (engine or motor and propeller on the glider) a glider
would have a hard time getting off the ground without some sort of
engine/motor.

False. See my other reply for videos of examples.

"Gravity, bungees, and (in true Fred Flintstone style)
horses are also used."

In other words a bio-mechanical engine and to examples of converting
potential energy to kinetic energy. So, a glider still can't be
launched without inputting some sort of energy which comes from
somewhere. I suppose a large headwind might suffice, if you like taking
off backwards with respect to the ground.

(But in Europe winches are more common than tugs, and
a typical release height is 2kft, but higher is possible.
A normal tug release height is 2kft, sometimes 3kft)


And before anyone mentions that a glider can stay aloft pretty much "all
day" by riding thermals, yes it can. But, if you're spending all day
searching for the best thermals, you're not spending any time going from
point A to point B, so they're not terribly useful as transportation.

True, but they are a damn sight more fun

(Besides, ISTR sailing ships seem to have been
used for transportation, even though they were
sometimes becalmed )

Fun is not a practical transportation device. It's awfully hard to get
a glider to fly arbitrary routes thousands of miles long. It's trivial
with a jet airliner.

Sure, but what does that have to do with the original point,
viz "Remove the engines and airplanes don't go up."
The can, and do, go up - occasionally higher than commercial
airliners other than Concorde.