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#41
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
"Robert Clark" wrote:
I was using, lamentably, Windows Live Mail, for my newsreader. This unfortunately does not allow you to put a '' symbol before quoted responses. This makes it harder to understand which part in the message is your response and which is the previous post. So I was top-posting because my signature line made it easier to distinguish the two. However, after doing a web search and finding many people having the same complaint about Windows Live Mail, I found a work-around at the site http://www.dusko-lolic.from.hr/wlmquote/. Unfortunately I just realized the default version of this script does not include your signature file. So I'll have to customize it. More work. Wouldn't it be simpler to just get a real newsreader? It's not like they're all that hard to find. Using the Windows newsreader mostly out of familiarity. What do you recommend for a newsreader? Bob Clark -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#42
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
As mentioned previously, battery-powered airplanes and helicopters do exist. As research toys; there are not as yet any electric airplanes or helicopters that could be called practical in any sense of the word. The ionic propulsion will likewise be battery-powered but at a more efficient power usage, if the ionizing wires are at the nanoscale. The greater efficiency for ionic propulsion with nanoscale wires can be confirmed with any wires at the nanoscale, not just carbon nanotubes. For example, the intense fields created by nanoscale wires in microcircuitry boards is well-known to those in the field. So anyone who has familiarity working with microcircuitry boards with nanoscale wiring could confirm this. An intense field does not automatically means motive power. Are you saying microcircuitry boards have to be lashed down to keep them from flying away? And that's all that's required. That in itself would be the game changer. Even if it's only done on a model the size of a model airplane, once it's shown that nanoscale wiring for ionic propulsion produced better power-to-thrust ratio than helicopters, that would be sufficient for this to supplant helicopters as a hovering transport method. Yeah, sure. You do know the tips of such ion generators burn away and the smaller the tip the faster they burn? Bob Clark In regards to the mode of operation, the lifters don't operate via electron emission. The air molecule ion production is due to the intense electric fields around the high voltage wires, a known phenomenon among electrical engineers called corona discharge or electrical breakdown. The wires are usually horizontal for most lifters and the corona field is generated around the length of the horizontal wires, not at the tips of the wires. There versions of the lifters that use the ionization around the end tips or wires, but this is also due to the intense field strength there, not electron emission. The corona in small diameter wires in electronic devices is limited by the coatings placed on the wires. In the lifters, the wires used are uncoated. A recent paper showed for nanowires at diameters in the range of 100 nm, the corona discharge in air arises at voltages of only about 100 V/m. This is compared to the 3,000,000 V/m normally found in air for macroscale wires: Nanoscale Res Lett. 2016; 11: 90. Published online 2016 Feb 16. doi: 10.1186/s11671-015-1217-4 ZnO Nanowire-Based Corona Discharge Devices Operated Under Hundreds of Volts. Wenming Yang, Rong Zhu,corresponding author and Xianli Zong https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4754239/ [free full text] This doesn’t show you can get thrust at these lower voltages, but the results on the air ionization are in accordance to what the mathematics predicts. And the air ionization is what generates the thrust. New ideas should be subjected to critical review. But that critical review should include testing to see if they actually work. Bob Clark -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#43
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote: As mentioned previously, battery-powered airplanes and helicopters do exist. As research toys; there are not as yet any electric airplanes or helicopters that could be called practical in any sense of the word. The ionic propulsion will likewise be battery-powered but at a more efficient power usage, if the ionizing wires are at the nanoscale. The greater efficiency for ionic propulsion with nanoscale wires can be confirmed with any wires at the nanoscale, not just carbon nanotubes. For example, the intense fields created by nanoscale wires in microcircuitry boards is well-known to those in the field. So anyone who has familiarity working with microcircuitry boards with nanoscale wiring could confirm this. An intense field does not automatically means motive power. Are you saying microcircuitry boards have to be lashed down to keep them from flying away? And that's all that's required. That in itself would be the game changer. Even if it's only done on a model the size of a model airplane, once it's shown that nanoscale wiring for ionic propulsion produced better power-to-thrust ratio than helicopters, that would be sufficient for this to supplant helicopters as a hovering transport method. Yeah, sure. You do know the tips of such ion generators burn away and the smaller the tip the faster they burn? Bob Clark In regards to the mode of operation, the lifters don't operate via electron emission. The air molecule ion production is due to the intense electric fields around the high voltage wires, a known phenomenon among electrical engineers called corona discharge or electrical breakdown. The wires are usually horizontal for most lifters and the corona field is generated around the length of the horizontal wires, not at the tips of the wires. There versions of the lifters that use the ionization around the end tips or wires, but this is also due to the intense field strength there, not electron emission. Also the end tips of sewing needles as they have a tiny tip and being steel more resistant to end erosion and are cheap. The corona in small diameter wires in electronic devices is limited by the coatings placed on the wires. In the lifters, the wires used are uncoated. If you have corona you have electron emmision by definition and with electron emmision you get tip erosion. A recent paper showed for nanowires at diameters in the range of 100 nm, the corona discharge in air arises at voltages of only about 100 V/m. This is compared to the 3,000,000 V/m normally found in air for macroscale wires: Hardly a surprise. Why do you think Van de Graaff generators are topped by a big, round, smooth ball? Did you ever do the high school experiment where you scotch tape a thumbtack to a Van de Graaff generator? Nanoscale Res Lett. 2016; 11: 90. Published online 2016 Feb 16. doi: 10.1186/s11671-015-1217-4 ZnO Nanowire-Based Corona Discharge Devices Operated Under Hundreds of Volts. Wenming Yang, Rong Zhu,corresponding author and Xianli Zong https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4754239/ [free full text] This doesnt show you can get thrust at these lower voltages, but the results on the air ionization are in accordance to what the mathematics predicts. And the air ionization is what generates the thrust. New ideas should be subjected to critical review. But that critical review should include testing to see if they actually work. Bob Clark Again, tip erosion, RFI, and total power required. -- Jim Pennino |
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
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#45
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:48:31 -0400, "Robert Clark"
wrote: The commonly used name for these EHD devices made by amateurs is "lifters". The problem with their not being able to fly independently is the power supplies are so heavy. Look for example at the lifter he How to: "Lifter" Power Supply. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfdsEVjBpBU Quite commonly the lifters weigh, and the thrust they can produce, is in the range of grams but the power supplies weigh in the range of kilograms. So how do you solve that problem? Let me give an analogy. Many people are aware of the technical innovations the Wright brothers made to be able to develop a successful flying machine. They made their own wind tunnel. They tested various air foils to find efficient ones of high lift. They developed a warping wing technique for steering. However, not as well known is the one key innovation they made for which all those other innovations would have been worthless. When many scientists of the time after doing a mathematical analysis asserted that no heavier-than air flying machine could work, oddly enough they were *right*. But the problem was, they were basing this on the power sources widely known at the time, steam engines. But the steam engines were so inefficient they could not supply sufficient power for their weight. They were too heavy. Around the time of the Wright brothers though the internal combustion gasoline engine was coming into use for automobiles, but they were still too heavy for the Wright brothers use. So the one *key* innovation the Wright brothers made was that they designed and built their OWN lightweight internal combustion engine. Now, back to the EHD propulsion method. The power supplies are too heavy, so what can we do about that? Well, you can make them out of lightweight materials. That's a possible route to follow, but most amateur and even professional experimenters have used ready made power supplies or used ready made parts to build them. The result is they are all pretty standard weight for the power they put out. But let's analyze this further, *why* are the power supplies so heavy? It turns out the reason they are so heavy is the voltage needed for the ion propulsion method is in the range of tens of thousands of volts, frequently as high as 50,000 volts. This then requires heavy transformers to produce voltage this high. Alright then, can we find a way to reduce the required voltage? High-voltage power supplies don't need heavy transformers. But they do need a source of power. I doubt that an ion thruster could lift its own batteries for five minutes even if the power converter weighs zero. Yes! It turns out if you reduce the diameter of the wires doing the ionization of the air then the required voltage is reduced. In fact, according to the math if the wires are at the nanoscale then the required voltage might be reduced to only tens of volts instead of tens of thousands of volts. For the small-scale lifters, if you used now wires at the nanoscale, it may be they could be powered by a couple of 9-volt batteries connected in series. Again, you won't get enough lift to support those two batteries, and they would be dead in minutes anyhow. The tiny tips would erode rapidly, too. Don't top post on usenet. If you know of a means to provide 50,000 V at *lightweight* then you will have solved the problem of an independently flying lifter, using the macrosized wires currently used. You would need about a power to weight ratio for the power source of better than 1 watt per gram, while being able to provide these ca. 50,000 V voltages. Bob Clark -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#46
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote:
snip If you know of a means to provide 50,000 V at *lightweight* then you will have solved the problem of an independently flying lifter, using the macrosized wires currently used. You would need about a power to weight ratio for the power source of better than 1 watt per gram, while being able to provide these ca. 50,000 V voltages. Bob Clark Trivial; look at any camera flash unit built in the last several decades. However you have totally missed the point; voltage and the weight of the converter is irrelevant as it is the total power that determines the weight of it all. BTW, here are some real world power to weight ratios: Boeing 777 engine 10 kW/kg 1985 Chevy Celebrity 300 W/kg Lithium-ion battery 85 W/kg nickel-metal battery 116 W/kg zinc air fuel cell 500 W/kg -- Jim Pennino |
#48
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
In sci.physics Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 11/07/2016 01:37 PM, wrote: In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote: snip If you know of a means to provide 50,000 V at *lightweight* then you will have solved the problem of an independently flying lifter, using the macrosized wires currently used. You would need about a power to weight ratio for the power source of better than 1 watt per gram, while being able to provide these ca. 50,000 V voltages. Bob Clark Trivial; look at any camera flash unit built in the last several decades. However you have totally missed the point; voltage and the weight of the converter is irrelevant as it is the total power that determines the weight of it all. BTW, here are some real world power to weight ratios: Boeing 777 engine 10 kW/kg 1985 Chevy Celebrity 300 W/kg -- So for a 1000 kg car, that's 402 horsepower? Sign me up! Cheers Phil Hobbs No, that is the power to weight ratio of the engine, not the power to weight ratio of the car. -- Jim Pennino |
#49
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
On 11/7/2016 1:46 PM, wrote:
In sci.physics Phil Hobbs wrote: On 11/07/2016 01:37 PM, wrote: In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote: snip If you know of a means to provide 50,000 V at *lightweight* then you will have solved the problem of an independently flying lifter, using the macrosized wires currently used. You would need about a power to weight ratio for the power source of better than 1 watt per gram, while being able to provide these ca. 50,000 V voltages. Bob Clark Trivial; look at any camera flash unit built in the last several decades. However you have totally missed the point; voltage and the weight of the converter is irrelevant as it is the total power that determines the weight of it all. BTW, here are some real world power to weight ratios: Boeing 777 engine 10 kW/kg 1985 Chevy Celebrity 300 W/kg -- So for a 1000 kg car, that's 402 horsepower? Sign me up! Cheers Phil Hobbs No, that is the power to weight ratio of the engine, not the power to weight ratio of the car. Power is a red herring. What's important is the total energy produced by the engine AND the fuel supply. It doesn't get the least bit interesting until the engine can lift itself and a FULL tank of whatever powers it AND the vehicle AND the payload to reach the destination. I can't imagine that ever happening 1000 feet off the ground on this ole earth at a cost anywhere near the cost of other forms of transportation. Stick it in space where you have solar or nuclear energy and you don't care how long it takes to get there or what it costs and you have something. |
#50
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
In sci.physics mike wrote:
On 11/7/2016 1:46 PM, wrote: In sci.physics Phil Hobbs wrote: On 11/07/2016 01:37 PM, wrote: In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote: snip If you know of a means to provide 50,000 V at *lightweight* then you will have solved the problem of an independently flying lifter, using the macrosized wires currently used. You would need about a power to weight ratio for the power source of better than 1 watt per gram, while being able to provide these ca. 50,000 V voltages. Bob Clark Trivial; look at any camera flash unit built in the last several decades. However you have totally missed the point; voltage and the weight of the converter is irrelevant as it is the total power that determines the weight of it all. BTW, here are some real world power to weight ratios: Boeing 777 engine 10 kW/kg 1985 Chevy Celebrity 300 W/kg -- So for a 1000 kg car, that's 402 horsepower? Sign me up! Cheers Phil Hobbs No, that is the power to weight ratio of the engine, not the power to weight ratio of the car. Power is a red herring. What's important is the total energy produced by the engine AND the fuel supply. It doesn't get the least bit interesting until the engine can lift itself and a FULL tank of whatever powers it AND the vehicle AND the payload to reach the destination. I can't imagine that ever happening 1000 feet off the ground on this ole earth at a cost anywhere near the cost of other forms of transportation. Are you trying to say airplanes aren't going to make it in the commercial world? -- Jim Pennino |
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