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Interesting Space Politics Thread
Mike Griffin is blaming Lockheed Martin for all the complaints about
Ares. http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/02...lame-lockheed/ http://www.transterrestrial.com/arch..._on_the_1.html |
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Interesting Space Politics Thread
"Rand Simberg" wrote in message ... Mike Griffin is blaming Lockheed Martin for all the complaints about Ares. http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/02...lame-lockheed/ http://www.transterrestrial.com/arch..._on_the_1.html Gotta blame someone, right? I'm still hopeful that the next administration will decide that Ares is the wrong way to go when the US has two flying EELV programs and several launch startups with new vehicles in the works. Jeff -- A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein |
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Interesting Space Politics Thread
On Feb 9, 8:39 am, "Jeff Findley" wrote:
"Rand Simberg" wrote in message ... Mike Griffin is blaming Lockheed Martin for all the complaints about Ares. http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/02...lame-lockheed/ http://www.transterrestrial.com/arch..._on_the_1.html Gotta blame someone, right? I'm still hopeful that the next administration will decide that Ares is the wrong way to go when the US has two flying EELV programs and several launch startups with new vehicles in the works. Jeff -- A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein An honest person soon discovers that he/she was snookered and dumbfounded past the point of no return. It takes a village of government and faith-based idiots and morons to screw everything up. China offers CATS, as well as cats. So, what's the big ass insurmountable problem with getting lots of nifty stuff as efficiently parked interactively into the moon's L1 oasis zone? .. - Brad Guth |
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Interesting Space Politics Thread
On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:39:44 -0500, "Jeff Findley"
wrote: Gotta blame someone, right? I'm still hopeful that the next administration will decide that Ares is the wrong way to go when the US has two flying EELV programs and several launch startups with new vehicles in the works. Or at least switch to Jupiter/DIRECT. Brian |
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Interesting Space Politics Thread
"Brian Thorn" wrote in message ... On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:39:44 -0500, "Jeff Findley" wrote: Gotta blame someone, right? I'm still hopeful that the next administration will decide that Ares is the wrong way to go when the US has two flying EELV programs and several launch startups with new vehicles in the works. Or at least switch to Jupiter/DIRECT. I'd not prefer that solution. NASA would tweak that design so much that it will end up far different than the shuttle components it's supposed to be based upon. Jeff -- A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein |
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Interesting Space Politics Thread
On Feb 10, 11:34*am, "Jeff Findley"
wrote: "Brian Thorn" wrote in message ... On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:39:44 -0500, "Jeff Findley" wrote: Gotta blame someone, right? *I'm still hopeful that the next administration will decide that Ares is the wrong way to go when the US has two flying EELV programs and several launch startups with new vehicles in the works. Or at least switch to Jupiter/DIRECT. I'd not prefer that solution. *NASA would tweak that design so much that it will end up far different than the shuttle components it's supposed to be based upon. Jeff -- A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein Why in the world should NASA involve itself in the launch business at all? NASA should involve itself exclusively in space operations from this point forward IMO. To do this a relative failure - the Shuttle Orbiter can be made into a resounding success story for NASA. The Orbiter is a magnificent spacecraft once in space. In addition to its payload bay and arm, it has wings that can be used for aerobraking to LEO or LMO. The Orion is virtually just "spam-in-a-can with far less capability for space operations of any kind beyond transporting astronauts. The Orbiter can catch and service sattelites and carry large payloads among many other activities. Using the Orbiters we have, with relatively minor modifications and additions, we can establish a self sufficient(in terms of propellant) Earth - Mars transportation system using solar based ISRU at Phobos and/or Deimos. A sketch of how this can be done: 1. Replace the OMS thrusters with LOX - methane rocket engines fed from tanks in the payload bay After the ET is dropped, these thrusters can fire to greatly increase payload to orbit. If a way to drop the SSME's could be worked out, the payload could increase further. Otherwise remove the SSME's by EVA and anything else reasonable to lighten the load. 2. Add a solar concentrator based system for extended power supply via highly efficient triple junction PV and use the same large concentrator mirrors as solar furnaces for ISRU and 100% recycling of consumables. In addition these mirrors can provide solar thermal and electric propulsion and high baud communication. The mirrors must be able to retract into the payload bay and be redeployed. 3. Launch two of these modified Orbiters. Receive additional propellant, perhaps from the other Shuttle on orbit and use the methane O2 rockets(restartable in space of course) to move to a highly elliptical Earth orbit and then to a Mars bound trajectory. Rely on solar thermal for emergency return from Mars to reduce propellant that must be carried to Mars. 4. Tether the two Orbiters together to provide spin for "artificial gravity" during the trip. 5. Seperate, stow mirrors and aerobrake first to a highly elliptical and then to LMO and Phobos/Deimos rendesvous. 6. Use solar furnace to process regolith for propellant and store it. 7. Return to Earth by first acheiving HEMO and then a final thrust for Earth bound trajectory. 8. Aerobrake at Earth to HEEO with perhaps some help from the rocket engines with enough propellant to return with additional equipment that could include a lander. 9. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Or we could do what we always do: develop sytem, operate it a while - throw it away or put in museum. Now I know this is heresy and is absolutely impossible, etc. I also know however that if the space community saw this as the only way forward it would somehow magically become possible.. Steve Mickler Solar Thermal/Electric Propulsion First STEP . |
#7
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Interesting Space Politics Thread
On Feb 18, 2:30 pm, wrote:
On Feb 18, 1:25 pm, wrote: The Orbiter is a magnificent spacecraft once in space. Only in LOE. In addition to its payload bay and arm, it has wings that can be used for aerobraking to LEO or LMO. Incorrect. It is only viable for entry. There is no way to recovery from the thermal loads quick enough after encounter. The Orion is virtually just "spam-in-a-can with far less capability for space operations of any kind beyond transporting astronauts. The Orbiter can catch and service sattelites Not needed. and carry large payloads among many other activities. ELV's can do this and ELV's can put them in higher energy orbits Using the Orbiters we have, with relatively minor modifications and additions, we can establish a self sufficient(in terms of propellant) Earth - Mars transportation system using solar based ISRU at Phobos and/or Deimos. Horsehockey A sketch of how this can be done: 1. Replace the OMS thrusters with LOX - methane rocket engines fed from tanks in the payload bay After the ET is dropped, these thrusters can fire to greatly increase payload to orbit. Where is the payload when the LOX - methane tanks are taking up payload bay volume If a way to drop the SSME's could be worked out, the payload could increase further. No, the mods to do this would have substantial weight and decrease mass to orbit. The SSME's wouldn't be jettisoned until the ET is. This would only save some OMS prop and the little savings would be more than offset by the weight increase from the mods 2. Add a solar concentrator based system for extended power supply via highly efficient triple junction PV and use the same large concentrator mirrors as solar furnaces for ISRU and 100% recycling of consumables. In addition these mirrors can provide solar thermal and electric propulsion and high baud communication. The mirrors must be able to retract into the payload bay and be redeployed. Again, where is the room for the payload with all this extra hardware and the LOX - methane tanks. You are also forgetting the larger radiators that would be required 3. Launch two of these modified Orbiters. Receive additional propellant, perhaps from the other Shuttle on orbit and use the methane O2 rockets(restartable in space of course) to move to a highly elliptical Earth orbit and then to a Mars bound trajectory. The orbiter couldn't carry enough prop in the payload bay to get it to the moon much less Mars. Also the orbiter systems are for LEO and not deep space Rely on solar thermal for emergency return from Mars to reduce propellant that must be carried. Huh? 4. Tether the two Orbiters together to provide spin for "artificial gravity" during the trip. Not viable. No tether points. And all your additional equipment was for non spinning 5. Seperate, stow mirrors and aerobrake first to a highly elliptical and then to LMO and Phobos/Deimos rendesvous. Aero capture has not been done befor 6. Use solar furnace to process regolith for propellant and store it. Where? Payload bay is full of other equipment 7. Return to Earth by first acheiving HEMO and then a final thrust for Earth bound trajectory. Not enough thrust. 8. Aerobrake at Earth to HEO with perhaps some help from the rocket engines with enough propellant to return with additional equipment that could include a lander. 9. Throw this concept away and try something that is viable This is completely undoable |
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