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#471
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In article ,
Pat Flannery writes: Peter Stickney wrote: It's amazing how well she (And I suppose your precedents) understood stuff like the Heating Value of various types of wood, and could precicely control the temperature by observing the color of the coals in the firebox. This sounds like the way that Japanese master swordmakers knew everything about everything when it came to heating, annealing, and tempering their swords....wow, Zen and the art of cooking? You made me pull out my translation of De Re Matallica, and some of my notes from Materiels Science, Lo those many decades ago (When there were only 103 Elements, because we had only manufactured 11) Back before pyrometers, and often still today, Smiths adn Metallurgists determined the temperature of a material by its color while it was in the furnace. I just pulled out my table of colors vs. temperatures - with a little practice, you could tell the temp to withing 10-20 degrees. Not bad when you're talking 1500-2000 degrees. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
#472
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Pat Flannery wrote:
Peter Stickney wrote: It's amazing how well she (And I suppose your precedents) understood stuff like the Heating Value of various types of wood, and could precicely control teh temperature by observing the color of the coals in the firebox. This sounds like the way that Japanese master swordmakers knew everything about everything when it came to heating, annealing, and tempering their swords....wow, Zen and the art of cooking? It has nothing at all to do with Zen, and everything to do with experience and in the case of the master swordmakers, apprenticeships and formal training. In particular the swordmakers *didn't* know 'everything' about annealing, etc... Just what worked and what didn't. They were utterly innocent of any knowledge of the underlying principles, and utterly unable to devise new tempering schedules to conform to changed metals. (Though they could discover them via trial and error, a different matter entirely.) Kinda like the medieval swords where they discovered recently some unique alloys. (Titanium IIRC.) The smiths didn't know from titanium, but they knew swords made with a 'capful of the sands of the Ile De saints' produced a superior weapon. D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. |
#473
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In message
Andrew Gray wrote: On 2004-05-12, Anthony Frost wrote: You are required to have a valid licence for the operation of equipment capable of receiving broadcast TV signals. 120 quid for a colour set (VCRs are assumed to be colour equipment) less for black and white only. The licence covers all equipment installed on the premises. There's odd exemptions involving battery-powered equipment, though; wither they don't require it or a license in the owning premises suffices to cover it being used in an unlicensed property; there may also be certain exemptions in odd cases. Equipment that is solely powered by batteries, no float charging from the mains allowed, is OK when used in a caravan or by students as long as there's a licence for the home address. Anthony -- | Weather prediction will never be accurate until we | | kill all the butterflies | |
#474
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On Sun, 16 May 2004 07:48:45 GMT, (Derek
Lyons) wrote: Kinda like the medieval swords where they discovered recently some unique alloys. (Titanium IIRC.) The smiths didn't know from titanium, but they knew swords made with a 'capful of the sands of the Ile De saints' produced a superior weapon. ....Which always had me wondering just what sort of R&D programs the ancient metallurgists actually implemented. How much was simply "trial and error" as opposed to "ok, this worked. Now, send a couple of apprentices to pick up different colored piles of **** and we'll mix them in one at a time to see if the resulting soup will kill more of the enemy." OM -- "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society - General George S. Patton, Jr |
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#476
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In article ,
OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org writes: On Sun, 16 May 2004 07:48:45 GMT, (Derek Lyons) wrote: Kinda like the medieval swords where they discovered recently some unique alloys. (Titanium IIRC.) The smiths didn't know from titanium, but they knew swords made with a 'capful of the sands of the Ile De saints' produced a superior weapon. ...Which always had me wondering just what sort of R&D programs the ancient metallurgists actually implemented. How much was simply "trial and error" as opposed to "ok, this worked. Now, send a couple of apprentices to pick up different colored piles of **** and we'll mix them in one at a time to see if the resulting soup will kill more of the enemy." There had to be something, at some level. Consider teh case of the Bezoar Stone. A Bezoar Stone is something that, when you put it into a goblet of Wine, will neutralize any poison dissolved in the Wine. (And thus highly prized by Kings & such). And in fact, Bezoar Stones exist. What they are is Calcified Goat Hairballs, which remain in the stomach of a Goat until, well, you can open up the goat to get them. That in and of itself wasn't so odd, folks had lots of odd ideas, in those days, The really strange thing is that it works. In an acidic environment, such as wine, the calcium in the Goat Hairball will bind up Arsenic, which was the most commonly used poison. One has to winder about the test program, though. Folks back then also learned a lot through experience, too. Take mushrooms for example. Neanderthal Man knew that some tasted pretty good, some would kill you, some would make you damned sick, and some would make you want to listen to the Doors through headphones for three days. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
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On 2004-05-16, Paul F. Dietz wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2004 07:48:45 GMT, (Derek Lyons) wrote: Kinda like the medieval swords where they discovered recently some unique alloys. (Titanium IIRC.) The smiths didn't know from titanium, but they knew swords made with a 'capful of the sands of the Ile De saints' produced a superior weapon. It's unlikely they had titanium, since it can't be produced carbothermically. I think what you're remembering involved vanadium. I've a book referring to a Japanese sword (it's vaguely phrased, and I don't know if it's one example or a set made by one guy) which turns out to be sixteenth-century (?) moly steel. We can presume the method didn't persist :-) -- -Andrew Gray |
#478
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"Derek Lyons" wrote in message ... In particular the swordmakers *didn't* know 'everything' about annealing, etc... Just what worked and what didn't. They were utterly innocent of any knowledge of the underlying principles, and utterly unable to devise new tempering schedules to conform to changed metals. The Fallacy of the Golden Age- the assumption by those who would wish it so that, merely because someone could create a thing, that they understood what they had created. Our forefathers were far more often just plain lucky, and that didn't change unil the last few centuries. Just because some ancient Greek could create what appears to be a battery hardly means that that person knew diddly about electrical theory. |
#479
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On 16 May 2004 14:05:03 GMT, Andrew Gray
wrote: I've a book referring to a Japanese sword (it's vaguely phrased, and I don't know if it's one example or a set made by one guy) which turns out to be sixteenth-century (?) moly steel. ....And when it's been properly blessed and annointed, does that make it holy moly steel? :-P OM -- "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society - General George S. Patton, Jr |
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