Gas Planets Evolve to be Rock planets???

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message
...
Well lets start with their core,and its solid. Lets come up further and
it is a liquid,and still further its atmosphere is a gas. Not much
difference(yes?) Let have gravity compress this gas so that it adds
more liquid to the planets surface as water. Jupiter could evolve into
a great water planet. It could be the best phase to go in the next 1.5
billion years. Bert

Bert You Say Fiunny Things.
You Got It all Back Wards
From:
http://www.dinox.freeserve.co.uk/english/comments.htm

Growth, Accumulation, Compression, Heating, Expansion, Relax.

After 15 months of Studying Expanding Earth I am finally starting to make
significant progress towards meaningful graphs of the Growth and Expansion
of the Earth. My base rate of 0.4 mm increase in radius has not changed, but
I am considering increasing my maximum rate of accumulation a very small
amount. I originally started with 4.8 mm per year as the max and lowered it
to 4.6 mm per year as the maximum. I now believe it is above 4.6 mm and
below 4.8 mm per year. This cyclical rate gives me a total accumulation
during the final Galactic rotation of 750 km (compressed from 790 km of
accumulation)using a base time period of 230 MY for one Galactic Rotation.
The period to rotate the Galaxy should be slightly longer each time (going
backwards in time)but so far I am unable to find out how much longer. I
therefor have been using uniform time periods of 230 MY or shorter to model
growth. Growth is cyclical (pulsational) and begins and ends a cycle with
0.4 mm per year accumulation. (about 3 sheets of paper) The peak of the
cycle that I have been using is assumed at 4.6 mm per year, but the sequence
of the cycle has an increasing amplitude as you move forward in time, or
decreasing as you move backwards in time.

It plots above a critical point in the Growth of the Earth namely the point
that corresponds to the initial opening of the Pacific Ocean. That critical
point is (900 MY, 3632 KM radius). Actually (900 MY +/- 20 MY, 3632 km +/-
65km). That critical point corresponds to a radius of 0.57 of the current
Earth radius ( range 0.58 to 0.56 Re)and encompasses Three important
concepts. 1)The continents were continuous and unbroken. 2)There was a
global equitorial mountain belt of aproximately 0.566 of the curent
equitorial circumference. and 3)The Phyla Anamalia began 880 MY ago after
the initial opening of the Pacific allowed for continuous Oceans on the
Earth. Prior to the initial opening of the Pacific, oceans were shallow and
intermittent thus the diversification of life was limited to bacterial and
various forms of algae. Continuous Ocean was one of the ingreedients towards
diverse life.

The sequence I have been using based on the concept of growth using 0.89^n
where The base is 750 km increase and each prior increase was 89% of the one
before. It plots just above Pacific opening critical point (-900MY,3632km)

The sequence of growth going backwards is 750, 667.5, 594, 528.7, 470.6,
418.8, 372.7, 331.7, 295.3, 262.8, 233.9, 208.1, .... etc. The 24th is a
negative number and the intercept is at - 4.8 Billion Years. The result is
that a final growth of 750 km is slightly too small and 0.89 is slightly too
big. somewhere between 750 km and 780 km is the correct amount of final
rotation growth and the growth coefficient will be between 0.87 and 0.89.
this will give a final date of -4.6 billion years as it should. 23.5
rotations seems to zero you out as far as radius no mater what the period of
each cycle. The correct formula will send you thru the following three
points (-4600,0) (-900,3632) (0,6372.4) and probably be a quadratic
equation.

You didn,t tell me if you got the print out on density or not that I sent
you and if it was of any use to you. I got a series of data points now on
gravity for the last Galactic rotation in intervals of 0.03 T where T can be
230, 240, or 250 MY. It started at 0.799 G and proceeds thru 1.0 G. The peak
of the dinosuar size is at 0.895 G.

The Bakker book allows for a higher gravity as the critical component, the
cantilevered neck structure of seismosaurs, could be raised and lowered in
ostritch style so that it would not be required to be fully extended. A full
extension would require 0.8 G at the peak, but an S shaped extension of the
neck allows for about a 0.9 G without more massive neck muscles and bigger
base vertabre.

As you can see I am making progress. Next I intend to tackle the problems of
decrasing atmospheric Temperature, pressure, density and volume in
association with decreasing gravity as you go backwards in time.

Growth and Expansion of the Earth

I have been studying Expanding Earth Theory for nearly two years now and
have made a few breakthroughs. The most important it the time rate of growth
of the Earth.

Specifically the radius of the Earth at any time (t)is equal to the fraction
of the elapsed time raised to the power e. Both the radius and time must be
given values between 0 and 1. For example when 81.5% of the total time to
construct the Earth has passed, the radius of the Earth is at 57.3% of the
current radius. This is the point where all the continents fit back together
into a unified land mass (single continent covering the Earth)and more
importantly two things are occuring or about to occur. The thinner
continental skin of the planet is wrinkling up along the equator due to a
faster rotation rate thus creating a global equitorial mountain belt, and
the gradual heating up of the interior of the Earth as the Earth grows. Also
the Pacific ocean is (or is about to) split open creating the first
permanant (continual) ocean on the Earth. The corresponding gravity of the
time has climbed to 4.07 m/sec^2 and the the remaining time to reach Earths
current size is approximately 888 million years.

In the next 888 MY all of the important things that have occured on the
Earth will happen as the Earth matures. Most importantly the explosion of
life in the oceans 545 million years ago,followed by the advances of life
out of the oceans and onto land are all tied to the growth of the Earth, and
to the resultant increase in the force of gravity from 4.07 m/sec^2 (-888
MY,R=3651 km) to 9.815 m/sec^2 (now,6372.4 km). Specifically life on land is
tied to the current density, pressure, temperature, volume and composition
of the atmosphere. This in turn is governed by the current gravity, and what
prior life has done to change the composition of the atmosphere.

It is rather sobering to me that meaningful life is tied to the final 1/9 or
less of the elapsed time of the Earth, but in that time the radius has
increased 171%, and the surface area has trippled, and the gravity has more
than doubled. In the next 200 million years, the Earth will grow to more
than an 8,000 km radius, the gravity will be greater than 12 m/sec^2, and
the sea level temperature on land will aproach the boiling point of water.
Life then will only be possible at high altitudes, and high latitudes.

I have become convinced that life responds to available nitches only after
the growth of the Earth has created those nitches. Those nitches are
constantly changing because of variations in the Earth's growth rate,
variations in climate, and variations in the locations of continents
relative to the equator. The growth rate has hit lows of 0.4 mm per year
(now), up to highs of 4.8 mm per year, thus varying the rate of increase in
the radius of the Earth. The maximum size of life on land (the dinosaurs)
responded to one of those 4.8 mm per year peaks. It was blessed with a
lesser gravity than today, an equitorial climate, a rapid accumulation of
space dust (nutrient loading), an atmosphere that was less dense, an
abundance of carbon dioxide to stimulate tree growth, and about a hundred
million years of above average growing conditions, while the gravity slowly
increased from around 7 m/sec^2 to almost 9 m/sec^2. About 50 million years
in the future these condition will begin to occur again with one important
exception, the gravity will be significantly higher, therefor the "giant"
life driving forces will again push for enormous sizes, but the results will
be animals that are very stout, not slender and relatively graceful as
dinosaurs were.

This 230 to 240 million year cycle (time for our galaxy to rotate once)is a
major contributor to the fluxuation in the growth rate of the Earth, and a
major contributor to changes in the maximum size of life. We have only seen
2 1/2 cycles since the explosion of life, and there will be only 1 more
cycle until the surface of the Earth becomes too hot to inhabit. I suspect
that dinosaurs are the maximum size that will ever inhabit the Earth (on
land)as increased gravity in the future will be the limiting factor.

You are encouraged to publish this as the more that is known of the complex
inter-relationships between the growth of the Earth and the size of its
inhabitants, the more that will be known in the future.

Prior Comments

Funny how you can go back and look at your prior comments, and spot the
errors, because your understanding keeps getting better. The most blatant
was the rate of growth. It should be 5 x 10^14 kg Minimum up to 6 x 10^15 kg
Maximun at the peak in mid dinosaur times (not 10^19 and 10^20). This
converts to 0.4 mm per year (min) up to 4.8 mm per year (maximum) increase
in the radius of the Earth solely due to growth from accumulation. This is
not expansion. Expansion is due to compressive heating, differentiation,
nuclear decay (more heating), and changes in chemical composition. Expansion
is currently much faster than growth (up to about 6 inches increase in the
circumference of the Earth per year).

Careful what you ask for

This is my fourth or fifth comment. I have been rereading some of my prior
comments and laugh at what I wrote a year ago. You shouldn't write after
midnight. Any way there is a gentleman who was wondering about future
predictions for the growth and expansion of the Earth, so I took on this
challange and worked several months on a method to estimate the growth rate
of the Earth. I finally succeeded. However, sometimes you shouldn't ask
certain questions as the answer you get may be rather sobering. I have put
together a model for growth that is exponential in nature, and fits my prior
estimates very well. It starts out at or near a zero radius Earth 5.0
Billion years ago, passes thru a 57.3% radius Earth 900 million years ago
and proceeds to the current size as of now. Unfortunately when it is
extrapolated into the future it predicts that exponential growth continues
"exponentially" with the resultant surface temperature, pressure and density
of the atmosphere continually increasing until it exceeds the boiling point
of water on land. Needless to say life as we know it on land anyway will
cease to exist. The issue of course is how soon will this occur. It may be
as long as 200 million years away, or as close as 50 million years away.
Either number is too soon to suit me.

Let me step back and give some of the mathematics and logic that that this
estimate is based on. In prior comments I had written that in successive
galactic rotations of 230,000,000 years led to an increase in the radius of
the Earth of about 300 km for each of the 23 to 25 rotations. This is a fair
average if growth was linear, but it isn't linear, it is exponential. The
final galactic rotation led to an increase of approximately 780 km in the
radius of the Earth due solely to growth. Each prior rotation had
accumulated about 88% of the time before, so as you go backwards in time the
growth rate rapidly become rather small, and when the Earth was young the
growth rate was very small. I finally snapped that this is exponential
growth, and that means "e" and natural log functions.

I then converted it to an extremely simple equation. The growth rate of the
Earth as a function of time is:

Radius (t) = T^e , Surface Area (t) = T^e^2 , Volume (t) = T^e^3 The value
of t is first allowed to go between 0 and 1 (0 is 5.0 billion years ago, and
1 is now). The radius then plots between 0 and 1 ( the 0 is a zero kilometer
radius, the 1 is the current radius of the Earth - 6372.4 km). All that is
needed is a third point and that is (0.815,0.573) - (elapsed time of 4.1
billion years (900 my ago) and a radius of 57.3% - 3651 km) This mid point
is the crucial one as it corresponds to the point where there was a single
continent covering the surface of the Earth, and no ocean floor, though
there were shallow oceans sitting atop the continental low spots. The other
thing that is important is that the global equitorial mountain belt is still
intact on a rapidly spinning smaller Earth. Then things start to change. The
growth rate is joined with an increasing expansion rate that starts to tear
the unified global surface into the continents we see today, and it created
the ocean basins along these rifts and the associated thin oceanic crust.

The Pacific Ocean was the first to form (it is now the largest). All of the
other ocean basins formed soon after as the rate of expansion accelerated
and overtook the growth rate. Many will note a problem here as the ocean
floor are no more than 205 million years old, and none approach 900 million
years old. This may be a limitation of our ability to drill deep enough
holes, or the earlier floor may be under the continents now, or just plain
remelted.

The logic portion of this has to do with the timeing and sequencing of the
geologic/fossil record. The explosion of life in the oceans occured between
600 million and 545 million years ago. It was followed by a series of
evolutions in geological/ time sucessions. Plants came before animals, ocean
occupation before land occupation. It is a ralatively simple concept. The
evolution of life on this planets is intimately linked to the growth and
expansion of the Earth. Mass, gravity, atmospheric pressure, temperature,and
volume, and life nurturing nitches all became available sequencially, and
life responded to fill those nitches soon after they were created. The
important components are water, oxygen, temperature, and pressure. Gravity
controls and creates all of these, and gravity is controlled by the
accumulating mass of the Earth. At the outside there will be only an
available window of roughly 800 million years for life on the Earth, and 600
million of those years have already expired. These correspond to "force of
gravity" ranges between 5 and 12 meters per sec^2. We are now at 9.8
m/sec^2. Pressure and temperature (kelvins) became high enough 600 million
years ago for life to flourish in the oceans. 430 to 400 million years ago
life moved onto land because pressure and temperature again exceeded the
minimum necessary for life. What life on the planet will face in the future
is a continually rising temperature, and life's nitches will dwindle first
on land, and then the oceans will slowly boil away. Whe will be left with
what we started with, high temperature bacteria, and eventually nothing. In
2.5 billion years or less we will be about the size of Neptune.

After plotting t between 0 and 1 (0.01, 0.02, 0.03 .... 0.97,0.98,
0.99,1.00) it is instructive to keep adding time, so far I went up to t =
1.53 where the volume of the Earth is 101 times what it is now, the surface
area is 33 times current area, and the radius is just over ten times what it
is now. The Earth will be an emerging gas giant, and Jupiter will be a
protostar. Mars is our best hope for continuance, but unfortunately is
slightly below the lower threshold where life and oceans began on Earth.
Mars had a 3400 km radius, and oceans didn't really start developing on the
Earth until 900 my ago at 3651 km radius.

Enjoy life while you can.

Mike Clark
Golden Colorado

G=EMC^2 Glazier wrote:
Well lets start with their core,and its solid. Lets come up further and
it is a liquid,and still further its atmosphere is a gas. Not much
difference(yes?) Let have gravity compress this gas so that it adds
more liquid to the planets surface as water. Jupiter could evolve into
a great water planet. It could be the best phase to go in the next 1.5
billion years. Bert



Not as long as thermodynamics is valid. Hydrostatic equilibrium will hold off
gravity, even for Jupiter. It is generating heat because it is still
contracting, but Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune are basically in hydrostatic
equilibrium because the pressure from the material inside is offsetting the
gravitational contraction outside. Jupiter will do the same thing.

G=EMC^2 Glazier wrote:
Well lets start with their core,and its solid. Lets come up further and
it is a liquid,and still further its atmosphere is a gas. Not much
difference(yes?) Let have gravity compress this gas so that it adds
more liquid to the planets surface as water. Jupiter could evolve into
a great water planet. It could be the best phase to go in the next 1.5
billion years. Bert



Not as long as thermodynamics is valid. Hydrostatic equilibrium will hold off
gravity, even for Jupiter. It is generating heat because it is still
contracting, but Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune are basically in hydrostatic
equilibrium because the pressure from the material inside is offsetting the
gravitational contraction outside. Jupiter will do the same thing.

Scott You mention "hydrostatic equilibrium" created by inside
"pressure". pushing up to balance gravities outside force pushing
in(compressing) Scott pressure is created by the force of gravity.
Sounds like the dog trying to catch its own tail I know hydrostatics is
the science of pressure and the equilibrium of fluids. So you are saying
right now Jupiter will reach a state of equilibrium like the gas planets
further from the sun. How long will this equilibrium last? Gravity
always wins in the end. Our sun is in a state of equilibrium that can
only last another 5 billion years. Fusion created by gravity losses its
outward force our sun will end up as a much "smaller" White Dwarf
That white dwarf has to get smaller(evolve). Scott the best theory for
the end of the universe is a cold death created by gravity taking away
all that it created.(back to a singularity.) Bert PS
Scott tell us about an experiment that is used to show one of string
theories predictions?

Scott You mention "hydrostatic equilibrium" created by inside
"pressure". pushing up to balance gravities outside force pushing
in(compressing) Scott pressure is created by the force of gravity.
Sounds like the dog trying to catch its own tail I know hydrostatics is
the science of pressure and the equilibrium of fluids. So you are saying
right now Jupiter will reach a state of equilibrium like the gas planets
further from the sun. How long will this equilibrium last? Gravity
always wins in the end. Our sun is in a state of equilibrium that can
only last another 5 billion years. Fusion created by gravity losses its
outward force our sun will end up as a much "smaller" White Dwarf
That white dwarf has to get smaller(evolve). Scott the best theory for
the end of the universe is a cold death created by gravity taking away
all that it created.(back to a singularity.) Bert PS
Scott tell us about an experiment that is used to show one of string
theories predictions?

the Universe expand, the atoms goes wider apart, preventing the formation of
a
solid )

No, forget about it. You will never get a rocky planet from a gas one.
Sorry. A
theorical possibility but a truly impossible one. And do not forget that i
live
in a true Universe, not a theorical one...
Good night!

Benoît Morrissette
../////////////////
Just a wee thought, taking Jupiter and Our Sun, what will happen when our
Sun becomes a red giant, sure a great deal of the lighter gasses will steam
off leaving either no gas and just water or maybe just rock.

the Universe expand, the atoms goes wider apart, preventing the formation of
a
solid )

No, forget about it. You will never get a rocky planet from a gas one.
Sorry. A
theorical possibility but a truly impossible one. And do not forget that i
live
in a true Universe, not a theorical one...
Good night!

Benoît Morrissette
../////////////////
Just a wee thought, taking Jupiter and Our Sun, what will happen when our
Sun becomes a red giant, sure a great deal of the lighter gasses will steam
off leaving either no gas and just water or maybe just rock.

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:14:29 -0400, Benoit Morrissette
wrote:

What I'm trying to show is gravity is evolving gas planets with its
compression force.(as it does all things) Jupiter will get smaller in
time,but its mass will not change. Gravities compression force can
change hydrogen gas to a stable solid.
Should I say more?
Bert
SNIP SNIP
********************* *********
No, you should NOT say more.
You should say less.
HOWEVER, you certainly should read much more before saying
anything.
---Mac

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:14:29 -0400, Benoit Morrissette
wrote:

What I'm trying to show is gravity is evolving gas planets with its
compression force.(as it does all things) Jupiter will get smaller in
time,but its mass will not change. Gravities compression force can
change hydrogen gas to a stable solid.
Should I say more?
Bert
SNIP SNIP
********************* *********
No, you should NOT say more.
You should say less.
HOWEVER, you certainly should read much more before saying
anything.
---Mac

Mac Should I put you in the same category as "Mac the knife?" Yes it
does fit. Bert