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screens in Apollo Mission Control



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 11th 06, 04:22 AM posted to sci.space.history
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Default screens in Apollo Mission Control

In the TV show "First on the moon: the untold story", Jack Garman says
that the screens on the consoles weren't computer screens showing live
data, they were TV screens showing data that had been printed on
slides. Is that true?
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  #2  
Old May 11th 06, 04:38 AM posted to sci.space.history
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Default screens in Apollo Mission Control

Not true, a big old sack of crap. That particular program had about 5
minutes of decent content, if that much...

"Jud McCranie" wrote in message
...
In the TV show "First on the moon: the untold story", Jack Garman says
that the screens on the consoles weren't computer screens showing live
data, they were TV screens showing data that had been printed on
slides. Is that true?
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  #3  
Old May 11th 06, 12:12 PM posted to sci.space.history
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Default screens in Apollo Mission Control

Stan Marsh wrote:
Not true, a big old sack of crap. That particular program had about 5
minutes of decent content, if that much...


Y'know, I'd just read about that recently, but the details escape me
right now; iirc, they weren't actual "live" digital systems, but
something somehow involving printed fresh data broadcast over a CCTV
link, and that the screens in the consoles were actually, basically, tv
sets on which the controllers could "change channels" to bring up
different data.

Still, that's really badly remembered, and I suppose it's time to step
aside and let Sy Liebergot explain this to us...


--

..

"Though I could not caution all, I yet may warn a few:
Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools!"

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__________________________________________________ _____________
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  #4  
Old May 11th 06, 09:22 PM
jgarman jgarman is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike flugennock
Stan Marsh wrote:
Not true, a big old sack of crap. That particular program had about 5
minutes of decent content, if that much...


Y'know, I'd just read about that recently, but the details escape me
right now; iirc, they weren't actual "live" digital systems, but
something somehow involving printed fresh data broadcast over a CCTV
link, and that the screens in the consoles were actually, basically, tv
sets on which the controllers could "change channels" to bring up
different data.

Still, that's really badly remembered, and I suppose it's time to step
aside and let Sy Liebergot explain this to us...
Not sure how the message got garbled... but Stan Marsh has it close. The titles and labels were definitely on printed slides which were automatically moved over CRT screens painted with live data from the control center mainframes (the "RTCC"). The composite was viewed by another camera which was actually the "channels" we viewed on the console display CRT's in the control center. Considering how little compute power was available in those days, it was an amazing combination of ingenuity and mechanics that made that and other elements of mission control work in the late 60's.

Controllers with the capability would select the "displays" to watch which went on an available channel, and then everyone else in the building could simply tune to that "TV channel" to see the same display. This also meant that the consoles could select channels that had regular CCTV television on them - be it broadcast from a camera mounted over a display table to see a paper plot or somesuch, or one of many camera views from KSC or within the MCC.

As to the "documentary" itself... I was a bit disappointed in the outcome. As usual, it wasn't advertised to be what it turned out to be for those of us who participated. I do not agreed that it was inaccurate - but it certainly was much more on the side of sensationalism an theatrics than I expected for a History Channel or Science Channel "documentary".

Jack Garman
May 11, 2006, Houston, TX
  #5  
Old May 11th 06, 09:41 PM
Sy Liebergot Sy Liebergot is offline
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Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgarman
Not sure how the message got garbled... but Stan Marsh has it close. The titles and labels were definitely on printed slides which were automatically moved over CRT screens painted with live data from the control center mainframes (the "RTCC"). The composite was viewed by another camera which was actually the "channels" we viewed on the console display CRT's in the control center. Considering how little compute power was available in those days, it was an amazing combination of ingenuity and mechanics that made that and other elements of mission control work in the late 60's.

Controllers with the capability would select the "displays" to watch which went on an available channel, and then everyone else in the building could simply tune to that "TV channel" to see the same display. This also meant that the consoles could select channels that had regular CCTV television on them - be it broadcast from a camera mounted over a display table to see a paper plot or somesuch, or one of many camera views from KSC or within the MCC.

As to the "documentary" itself... I was a bit disappointed in the outcome. As usual, it wasn't advertised to be what it turned out to be for those of us who participated. I do not agreed that it was inaccurate - but it certainly was much more on the side of sensationalism an theatrics than I expected for a History Channel or Science Channel "documentary".

Jack Garman
May 11, 2006, Houston, TX
Thought that I'd let my friend, Jack Garman speak for himself. Gotta be careful, all us "old guys" are out here, watching....
Sy Liebergot
"Apollo EECOM: Journey of a Lifetime"
  #6  
Old May 12th 06, 12:32 AM posted to sci.space.history
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Default screens in Apollo Mission Control

On Thu, 11 May 2006 20:22:08 +0000, jgarman
wrote:

Not sure how the message got garbled... but Stan Marsh has it close.
The titles and labels were definitely on printed slides which were
automatically moved over CRT screens painted with live data from the
control center mainframes (the "RTCC").


What was the time delay from when new data came in until it was
available to that system? That is, how close to "live" was it?
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  #7  
Old May 12th 06, 12:32 AM posted to sci.space.history
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Default screens in Apollo Mission Control

On Thu, 11 May 2006 20:41:59 +0000, Sy Liebergot
wrote:

Thought that I'd let my friend, Jack Garman speak for himself. Gotta be
careful, all us "old guys" are out here, watching....


I certainly appreciate it!
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  #8  
Old May 12th 06, 05:18 AM posted to sci.space.history
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Default screens in Apollo Mission Control

jgarman wrote:

As to the "documentary" itself... I was a bit disappointed in the
outcome. As usual, it wasn't advertised to be what it turned out to be
for those of us who participated.


Indeed. I'm almost universally disappointed in submarine
documentaries.

I do not agreed that it was
inaccurate - but it certainly was much more on the side of
sensationalism an theatrics than I expected for a History Channel or
Science Channel "documentary".


I take it then that it's been some decades since you watched either.

D.
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-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #9  
Old May 12th 06, 02:49 PM
jgarman jgarman is offline
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The exact time I don't know, but I can say that the delay from receiving data at the ground station until it was processed and displayed on the CRT's was LESS than the speed-of-light delay when they were in lunar orbit or on the moon. As I recall the total processing-to-display (transport lag) delay was over a second and less than two seconds, but I could be off a bit (low).

The whole business of handling data was different for vehicles in earth orbit vs. those in deep space. Once a vehicle was out of earth orbit only three tracking stations were required to have continuous coverage (unless they were behind the moon) - they were in California, Spain, and Australia (more or less a third of the way around the earth from each other). These were the same tracking and telemetry ground stations that did the job for the planetary probes managed by JPL. Those ground stations had good links to Goddard near DC and then to Houston. It wasn't until much later than NASA had the TDRSS (tracking data relay satellite system) that allowed/allows continuous coverage in earth orbit.

As a result, while in earth orbit, the vehicles and crew were continually going into coverage (AOS - or acquisition of signal) and out of coverage (LOS or loss of signal). And depending on what track they were on (with the earth rotating under them, the ground track continually changed of course), sometimes they would be "LOS" for long periods.

Moreover, in the early days, NASA didn't have high speed lines connecting some of the remote ground stations or tracking ships. So they actually had flight controllers and CAPCOM's stationed at various points around the earth who would act as mini-MCC's to provide a more "real time" response to the orbiting crew and vehicle. (Again, this was for earth orbit only)

I remember clearly during AS-501 (unmanned first test of the full Saturn V) that we got "snapshots" of data periodically when the vehicle wasn't over prime tracking sites. They actually sent the data by the equivalent of today's "fax" type communication as a single snapshot and it was then processed and displayed on our CRT's - "freeze frame".

However, all this is really much closer to Sy's world and I should "stand down" in acting like an expert - I was an onboard computer geek and a "guest" in mission control in that context. While, in those days, it was really eerie for a then-young engineer like me to watch what was going on "inside" computers far away from earth - it was an amazing feat of then technology and operations in Mission Control that enabled it.

I will let the grin acerbic replies of Mr. Lyons pass except to remark that I do find the History and Science channel to be of more value than most television - even given the over-simplifications and theatrics that are allowed in many times. So indeed I was surprised and disappointed with this particular "show" - me in it or not. The decline of science, math and engineering graduates in this country scares me - so I'm "all for" trying to engage the interest of young folks in those fields. That is one of several metrics for me of "value" in television docmentaries and programming (along with entertainment, accuracy, etc, of course).

Jack Garman
Houston, TX - May 12, 2006
  #10  
Old May 12th 06, 04:10 PM posted to sci.space.history
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Default screens in Apollo Mission Control

mike flugennock wrote:
Stan Marsh wrote:
Not true, a big old sack of crap. That particular program had about 5
minutes of decent content, if that much...


Y'know, I'd just read about that recently, but the details escape me
right now; iirc, they weren't actual "live" digital systems, but
something somehow involving printed fresh data broadcast over a CCTV
link, and that the screens in the consoles were actually, basically, tv
sets on which the controllers could "change channels" to bring up
different data.


This sort of system was very common in the days before display hardware
was cheap and easy to build. And, in fact, you will find it in a lot of
airport control towers today for looking at various non-critical data
displays and video cameras.
--scott

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