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#1




Backward planets may have flipped into place
Backward planets may have flipped into place
Reversed orbits among ‘hot Jupiters’ decreases chance of Earthlike neighbors. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...ped_into_place 
#2




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On Apr 14, 5:55*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
Backward planets may have flipped into place Reversed orbits among ‘hot Jupiters’ decreases chance of Earthlike neighbors.http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...Backward_plane... I am looking at the list of threads and this topic is sandwiched between the guy who sees fossils in meteorites,another who apparently sees human remains in coal strata and it all comes from the same attempt to appear original and controversial at the same time and if there is a nauseating feeling for many when they encounter junk,it is probably the most valuable faculty they have before descending into conceptual oblivion. Maybe somebody will wake up and realize that perhaps people genuinely want to know about their own planet and many,many links between the motions and structure of the celestial arena and terrestrial effects,the very fact that nobody here has affirmed that the Earth is round and rotating with the effect of twilight length variations at different latitudes due to known rotational speeds is pretty much shocking and people should be ashamed of themselves,truly. The ability to make solar system comparisons using the Fomalhaut system is an incredible opportunity for astronomers who are not afraid to apply interpretation from direct observations but considering just how poor the standard is with basic astronomical facts for our planet,these solar system comparisons are a long way off.These are holocaust conditions at the moment,too many bystanders and not enough effort towards restoring any semblance of a stable intellectual platform. 
#3




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On 4/14/10 4:13 AM, oriel36 wrote:
On Apr 14, 5:55 am, Sam wrote: Backward planets may have flipped into place Reversed orbits among â€˜hot Jupitersâ€™ decreases chance of Earthlike neighbors.http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...Backward_plane... I am looking at the list of threads and this topic is sandwiched between the guy who sees fossils in meteorites,another who apparently sees human remains in coal strata and it all comes from the same attempt to appear original and controversial at the same time and if there is a nauseating feeling for many when they encounter junk,it is probably the most valuable faculty they have before descending into conceptual oblivion. That's your problem, Gerald. There is no connection. As we have more and better telescopes, the universe is revealing herself observation by observation. It is important that one continues to be a lifelong learner, adapting one's world view as more and better observations clarify the pricture. It was a particular joy to me to apply Kepler's third law to the observations of the Fomalhaut System and find that the mass falling out of Kepler's equation agree beautifully with the mass predicted by the spectra of that star. Gerald I don't think you have the mathematical background to understand Kepler's third law in its modern applications, but do look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion#Third_law 4Ï€^2a^3 = P^2G(M + m) Gerald, just because you can't understand the mathematics, does not make it wrong. Fomalhaut's mass is about 2 solar masses. Fomalhautb's orbital RADIUS is 115 astronomical units, a = 115 AU. Fomalhautb's orbital PERIOD is 872 years, T = 872 years. And using Kepler's third law, we get, P^2 = (2Ï€)^2 a^3 / G M (872 yr)^2 = (2Ï€)^2 (115 AU )^3 / G (3.978 Ã— 10^30 kg) Kepler's third law works beautifully for the Fomalhaut system! The observations agree beautifully with Kepler's law of Harmony! 
#4




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On Apr 14, 4:35Â*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/14/10 4:13 AM, oriel36 wrote: On Apr 14, 5:55 am, Sam Â*wrote: Backward planets may have flipped into place Reversed orbits among â€˜hot Jupitersâ€™ decreases chance of Earthlike neighbors.http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...Backward_plane... I am looking at the list of threads and Â*this topic is sandwiched between the guy who sees fossils in meteorites,another who apparently sees human remains in coal strata and it all comes from the same attempt to appear original and controversial at the same time and if there is a nauseating feeling for many when they encounter junk,it is probably the most valuable faculty they have before descending into conceptual oblivion. Â* Â*That's your problem, Gerald. There is no connection. I once thought that the nearest astronomical insight to the daylight/ darkness cycle due to rotation was the daylight/darkness variations in the seasonal cycles at different latitudes but discovered last year that it is the latitudinal variations in twilight length correlated with latitudinal speeds which represent the nearest association to daily rotation,the fact that the Earth is round causes twilight length to vary with latitude as a location rotates through the circle of illumination at various speeds,the slower the speed,the longer the twilight.The insight is a simple and effective way to bring up the known rotational speeds and especially the maximum speed of 1037.5 miles per hour at the equator,also representing 15 degrees of geographical seperation,thereby it all fits together neatly where the Earth turns 15 degrees per hour and a full equatorial circumference in 24 hours. In the absence of telescopes,the great astronomers were extremely good at putting observations in context whereas the magnification tool adds detail,the problem was that astronomers sacrificed detail for context and eventually lost context altogether with the rise of empiricism.I am restoring the link between detail and context which modern imaging provides and especially the ability to make planetary and even solar system comparisons in order to discover a streamlined explanation out of the distinctive features of each planet,solar system comparisons using the Fomalhaut system are just as fascinating but that is a long way off at present. Being in a position to prove rotation once in 24 hours using cause and effect only allows me to offer people a second chance to revisit the great astronomical insights using the tools of modern imaging and all those modifications and adaptations which are waiting for those who can rise to a level of understanding of planetary dynamics whether it is climate,geology,solar system structure,influence of the solar system's galactic orbital motion on orbital dynamics and many,many other things.The other option is to remain stuck in the late 17th century Ra/Dec framework which gives you those hideous 'no center/no circumference' ideologies of big bang/black hole,nonentities which exist only as wordplays in the minds of mathematicians for a person who tries to imagine a 'no center/no circumference' object will end up laughing at the stupidity of it all. You can continue with the latest/greatest empirical novelty,these things always have an audience, but effectively they have the same substance as the fossil guys and most here now know it. Â* Â*It was a particular joy to me to apply Kepler's third law to Â* Â*the observations of the Fomalhaut System and find that the mass Â* Â*falling out of Kepler's equation agree beautifully with the mass Â* Â*predicted by the spectra of that star. Â* Â*Gerald I don't think you have the mathematical background to Â* Â*understand Kepler's third law in its modern applications, but Â* Â*do look at:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion#Third_law Â* Â* Â*4Ï€^2a^3 = P^2G(M + m) Â* Â*Gerald, just because you can't understand the mathematics, does Â* Â*not make it wrong. Â* Â*Fomalhaut's mass is about 2 solar masses. Â* Â*Fomalhautb's orbital RADIUS is 115 astronomical units, a = 115 AU. Â* Â*Fomalhautb's orbital PERIOD is 872 years, T = 872 years. Â* Â*And using Kepler's third law, we get, Â* Â* Â* P^2 = (2Ï€)^2 a^3 / G M Â* Â* Â*(872 yr)^2 = (2Ï€)^2 (115 AU )^3 / G (3.978 Ã— 10^30 kg) Â* Â*Kepler's third law works beautifully for the Fomalhaut system! The Â* Â*observations agree beautifully with Kepler's law of Harmony! 
#5




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On 4/14/10 12:16 PM, oriel36 wrote:
Being in a position to prove rotation once in 24 hours using cause and effect only allows me to offer people a second chance to revisit the great astronomical insights using the tools of modern imaging and all those modifications and adaptations which are waiting for those who can rise to a level of understanding of planetary dynamics whether it is climate,geology,solar system structure,influence of the solar system's galactic orbital motion on orbital dynamics and many,many other things. What you wrote is just word salad, Gerald! Direct observation shows you are wrong about the 24 hours. And of course galactic orbital motion has nothing to do with the planetary dynamics of our solar system. Newton work out the basics and planetary and celestial mechanics quickly followed. You should get yourself a copy of: EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL ALMANAC Edited by P. Kenneth Seidelmann, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington D.C. University Science Books Mill Valley, CA 94941 1992 Library of Congress Catalog Number: 9165331 ISBN 0935702687 "In just the last few years the International Astronomical Union has introduced subtle changes in the reference frame used for the coordinates of celestial objects, both within and far beyond our solar system. So sweeping are these revisions that a highly respected work for professional astronomers, the EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL EPHEMERIS, published in 1961, is now seriously out of date. [The EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL ALMANAC, published in 1992 replaces this older work.] While the technical journals have seen a flurry of scientific papers on these issues, [Meeus' book] is the first to offer succinct and practical methods for coping with the changeover. It will be many years before astronomical data bases and catalogs are fully converted to the new system, and anyone who needs a detailed understanding of what's going on will appreciate this book's many comments about the FK4 and FK5 reference frames, 'equinox error,' and the distinction between 'J' and 'B' when placed before an epoch like 2000.0. "Scarcely any formula is presented without a fully worked numerical exampleso crucial to the debugging process. the emphasis throughout is on testing, on the proper arrangement of formulae, and on not pushing them beyond the time span over which they are valid. Chapter 2 contains much wisdom of this sort, growing out of the author's long experience with various computers and their languages. He alerts us to other pitfalls throughout the text. Anyone who tries to chart the path of a comet, for instance, soon encounters Kepler's equation. It has so vexed astronomers over the years that literally hundreds of solutions have been proposed; the striking graphs in Chapter 29 give a good idea why. "We now live in a thrilling time for practitioners of the numbercrunching art. The fourfunction pocket calculators that were so costly 20 years ago are now incorporated as a gimmick on certain wris****ches. The memory capacity of the 1K RAM board in the pioneering MITS Altair microcomputer is exceeded 500fold by a single chip in some of today's laptop and notebook computers. Who knows what other marvels lie just ahead? By presenting these astronomical algorithms in standard mathematical notation, rather than in the form of program listings, the author has made them accessible to users of a wide variety of machines and computer languagesincluding those not yet invented". The primary purpose of this 760 page (completely revised and rewritten to conform to the FK5 reference frame in current use) EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL ALMANAC is to provide users of THE ASTRONOMICAL ALMANAC with more complete explanations of the significance, sources, methods of computation, and use of the data given in the almanac than can be included annually in the almanac itself. The secondary purpose is to provide complementary information that doesn't change annually, such as conceptual explanations, lists of constants and other data, bibliographic references, and historical information relating to the almanac. Many users of the almanac are not the professional astronomers for whom it is primarily designed, and so this supplement contains some explanatory material at an elementary level; it is not, however, intended for use as a basic textbook on spherical and dynamical astronomy. In some respects it does supplement such textbooks since it is concerned with new concepts or new techniques. This supplement differs in many respects from its predecessor, the EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL EPHEMERIS AND THE AMERICAN EPHEMERIS AND NAUTICAL ALMANAC. Vector and matrix notation have been introduced and more diagrams have been provided. Simple conversion tables and tables of quantities that can be calculated directly from simple formulas have been omitted. Detailed stepbystep examples have been omitted, and approximation methods have not been given. Most of the text is new but historical material has been carried over for the convenience of those who do not have ready access to the previous supplement. There is a tremendous amount of information and rigor in the EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT. The following chapters (and some subchapters) give a little insight into the content. 1. Introduction to Positional Astronomy 2. Time 3. Celestial Reference Systems 4. Terrestrial Coordinates and the Rotation of the Earth The task of establishing or defining the terrestrial coordinates of a point is inextricably linked to establishing the rotation of the earth over time. The definition of any terrestrial reference coordinate system is given by establishing a celestial reference coordinate system and a suitable transformation between them. This chapter includes grid systems such as Longitude and Latitude, Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM), Universal Polar Stereographic (UPS), and so on, Geodetic Datums, and the Global Positioning System (GPS). 5. Orbital Ephemerides of the Sun, Moon, and Planets 6. Orbital Ephemerides and Rings of Satellites 7. Physical Ephemerides of the Sun, Moon, Planets, and Satellites 8. Eclipses of the Sun and Moon 9. Astronomical Phenomena 9.1 General Aspects of the Night Sky 9.2 Configurations of The Sun, Moon, and Planets 9.3 Risings, Settings, and Twilight 9.4 Occultations 9.5 PoleStar Tables 9.6 References 10. Stars and Stellar Systems 11. Computational Techniques 11.1 Introduction to Computing Techniques 11.2 Interpolation and subtabulation 11.3 Plane and Spherical Trigonometry 11.4 Matrix and Vector Techniques 11.41 Rotation of Axis Using Matrices 11.42 Spherical Coordinates Using Vectors 11.43 Spherical Coordinate Transformations 11.5 Numerical Calculus 11.6 Statistics 11.7 References 12. Calendars This section includes: Introduction, The Gregorian, Hebrew, Islamic, Indian, and Chinese Calendars as well as Julian Day Numbers and Julian Date, The Julian Calendar, Calendar Conversion Algorithms and References. 13. Historical Information 14. Related Publications 15. Reference Data Glossary Index The last chapter, Reference Data, contains pages of Fundamental Constants, Time and Standard Epochs, constants relating to the Sun, Earth, and Moon, Geodetic Reference Systems, Planets: Mean Elements, Planets: Rotational Data, Planets: Physical and Photometric Data, Satellites: Orbital Data, Satellites: Physical and Photometric Data, Planetary Rings and on and on. 
#6




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On Apr 15, 1:40*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/14/10 12:16 PM, oriel36 wrote: Being in a position to prove rotation once in 24 hours using cause and effect only allows me to offer people a second chance to revisit the great astronomical insights using the tools of modern imaging *and all those modifications and adaptations which are waiting for those who can rise to a level of understanding of planetary dynamics whether it is climate,geology,solar system structure,influence of the solar system's galactic orbital motion on orbital dynamics and many,many other things. * *What you wrote is just word salad, Gerald! * *Direct observation shows you are wrong about the 24 hours. There is no right or wrong as to why twilight lengths vary with latitude,the slower rotational speeds away from the equator correlate with longer twilights where the maximum equatorial speed is 1037.5 miles per hour and turning an entire 24,901 mile circumference in 24 hours.This is the only proof people will need to recover astronomy and in doing so ,recover their own humanity,to act as a servant to humanity instead of a slave to a cult tyranny. The proof is nothing more than a way to open up the windows on planetary dynamics,for instance,the current volcanic activity in Iceland is linked to the underlying Mid Atlantic Ridge which shows all the traits of being influenced by the internal rotational mechanism.Astronomers could have pointed out the lack of tectonic activity on Venus apart from volcanism by correlating the rotational characteristics of each planet, their spherical deviation and numerous ways to extract clues as to the internal characteristics.The conceptual gridlock surfaces in geology by assigning no rotational mechanism between viscous interior and fractured crust and that makes it an astronomical problem or rather,the inability to even discuss rotational speeds generates no conceptual spark needed to get cause and effect up and running. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/tr...forecast.html I have earned the right to express dismay at what the large institutions are doing or not doing but ultimately it is the people who frequent this forum who should be ashamed of themselves for not recognizing the simple and effective proof for rotation once in 24 hours thereby moving things forward to productive topics. .. And of * *course galactic orbital motion has nothing to do with the planetary * *dynamics of our solar system. Newton work out the basics and planetary * *and celestial mechanics quickly followed. 
#7




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On 4/15/10 3:13 AM, oriel36 wrote:
I have earned the right to express dismay at what the large institutions are doing or not doing but ultimately it is the people who frequent this forum who should be ashamed of themselves for not recognizing the simple and effective proof for rotation once in 24 hours thereby moving things forward to productive topics. Gerald, please don't try to shame others for your misunderstandings. We (you and I) can go out and measure all 360° of the earth's rotation on any clear pair of nights in exactly one sidereal day. You could do it on your own, but I doubt you ever will. Your denial is like the church looking through Galileo's telescope darkly back in 1610. 
#8




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On Apr 15, 11:36*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/15/10 3:13 AM, oriel36 wrote: I have earned the right to express dismay at what the large institutions are doing or not doing but ultimately it is the people who frequent this forum who should be ashamed of themselves for not recognizing the simple and effective proof for rotation once in 24 hours thereby moving things forward to productive topics. * *Gerald, please don't try to shame others for your misunderstandings. Shame is not a permanent condition,accepting that the proof is effective is pretty much the intelligent thing to do,not just that slower rotational speeds correlate with longer twilights thereby acknowledging a round and rotating Earth but the myriad of links which flow from that information * *We (you and I) can go out and measure all 360° of the earth's * *rotation on any clear pair of nights in exactly one sidereal day. The return of a star in 23 hour 56 minutes has no intrinsic value,it can't tell you anything of the rotational speed at your latitude,again,it is a matter of intelligence and if you give me your latitudinal details,I will find out how fast your location will travel through the circle of illumination or through an entire 360 degrees using the equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour as a benchmark. * *You could do it on your own, but I doubt you ever will. Your denial * *is like the church looking through Galileo's telescope darkly back * *in 1610. People should be delighted to have the proof for daily rotation once in 24 hours,a proof in line with the astronomical tradition which stretches back to antiquity and much of what happens now depends on how quickly people can adapt to 21st century astronomy where imaging power allows for planetary comparisons to derive common relationships between cause and effect with the flawed reasoning removed.As always,there are many ways to approach astronomy depending on what a person wants from it,some just want to detail the constellations or different objects while others go on to context at a terrestrial or cosmological level,there is no reason for those involved in Ra/Dec observing to trip up those who operate from context and unfortunately that is the main source of the conceptual gridlock presently. How fortunate for that eruption in Iceland just as you happened to post about volcanism on Venus ,I assure you that I have no interest in priority when discussing the rotational mechanism and geology,just the satisfaction in working on something that is new,fresh and enjoyable. 
#9




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On 4/15/10 7:39 AM, oriel36 wrote:
The return of a star in 23 hour 56 minutes has no intrinsic value,it can't tell you anything of the rotational speed at your latitude,again,it is a matter of intelligence and if you give me your latitudinal details,I will find out how fast your location will travel through the circle of illumination or through an entire 360 degrees using the equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour as a benchmark. The speed (as a function al latitude) is of little concern to me. At all latitudes the earth rotates 360° in one sidereal day, easily observed anywhere on the earth. 
#10




Backward planets may have flipped into place
On Apr 15, 3:05*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/15/10 7:39 AM, oriel36 wrote: The return of a star in 23 hour 56 minutes has no intrinsic value,it can't tell you anything of the rotational speed at your latitude,again,it is a matter of intelligence and if you give me your latitudinal details,I will find out how fast your location will travel through the circle of illumination or through an entire 360 degrees using the equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour as a benchmark. * *The speed (as a function al latitude) is of little concern to me. * *At all latitudes the earth rotates 360° in one sidereal day, easily * *observed anywhere on the earth. You know Sam to put this in proper perspective,,if I took you to the Western shores and showed you that there is a correlation between wind strength and wave heights,the stronger the wind blows the higher the waves,you would probably feel insulted that such an explanation is even necessary yet here we have an entire group of people in sci.astro.amateur who feel a desperate need to argue against the correlation between latitudinal rotational speeds and twilight lengths,the slower the speed away from the equator the longer the twilight denoting a round and rotating Earth.In order to prevent falling into dismay,I have to believe that all people are not unresponsive to the enormity of the error and that they fully understand that while the proof for rotation of the Earth through 360 degrees in 24 hours using known rotational speeds for each latitude is simple and effective,it is only the beginning of cause and effect applied to all areas where planetary dynamics and terrestrial effects mesh. Each individual has to look in the mirror and be prepared to accept the level at which they choose to comprehend the correlation between cause and effect,just as wind strength/wave heights takes no real effort ,neither does the correlation between twilight length/ latitudinal speeds and people should be ashamed of themselves if they continue to promote an alternative explanation just to save the crude conclusion of 'sidereal time' .I would also like to think that people would deal with the error in an urgent way rather than attempt to defend the error created by Flamsteed. 

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