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Backward planets may have flipped into place



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 14th 10, 05:55 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Posts: 3,966
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

Backward planets may have flipped into place
Reversed orbits among hot Jupiters decreases chance of Earthlike
neighbors.
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...ped_into_place
  #2  
Old April 14th 10, 10:13 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On Apr 14, 5:55*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
Backward planets may have flipped into place
Reversed orbits among hot Jupiters decreases chance of Earthlike
neighbors.http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...Backward_plane...


I am looking at the list of threads and this topic is sandwiched
between the guy who sees fossils in meteorites,another who apparently
sees human remains in coal strata and it all comes from the same
attempt to appear original and controversial at the same time and if
there is a nauseating feeling for many when they encounter junk,it is
probably the most valuable faculty they have before descending into
conceptual oblivion.

Maybe somebody will wake up and realize that perhaps people genuinely
want to know about their own planet and many,many links between the
motions and structure of the celestial arena and terrestrial
effects,the very fact that nobody here has affirmed that the Earth is
round and rotating with the effect of twilight length variations at
different latitudes due to known rotational speeds is pretty much
shocking and people should be ashamed of themselves,truly.

The ability to make solar system comparisons using the Fomalhaut
system is an incredible opportunity for astronomers who are not afraid
to apply interpretation from direct observations but considering just
how poor the standard is with basic astronomical facts for our
planet,these solar system comparisons are a long way off.These are
holocaust conditions at the moment,too many bystanders and not
enough effort towards restoring any semblance of a stable intellectual
platform.
  #3  
Old April 14th 10, 04:35 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Posts: 3,966
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On 4/14/10 4:13 AM, oriel36 wrote:
On Apr 14, 5:55 am, Sam wrote:
Backward planets may have flipped into place
Reversed orbits among ‘hot Jupiters’ decreases chance of Earthlike
neighbors.http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...Backward_plane...


I am looking at the list of threads and this topic is sandwiched
between the guy who sees fossils in meteorites,another who apparently
sees human remains in coal strata and it all comes from the same
attempt to appear original and controversial at the same time and if
there is a nauseating feeling for many when they encounter junk,it is
probably the most valuable faculty they have before descending into
conceptual oblivion.


That's your problem, Gerald. There is no connection.

As we have more and better telescopes, the universe is revealing
herself observation by observation. It is important that one
continues to be a life-long learner, adapting one's world view as
more and better observations clarify the pricture.

It was a particular joy to me to apply Kepler's third law to
the observations of the Fomalhaut System and find that the mass
falling out of Kepler's equation agree beautifully with the mass
predicted by the spectra of that star.

Gerald I don't think you have the mathematical background to
understand Kepler's third law in its modern applications, but
do look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion#Third_law

4π^2a^3 = P^2G(M + m)

Gerald, just because you can't understand the mathematics, does
not make it wrong.

Fomalhaut's mass is about 2 solar masses.
Fomalhaut-b's orbital RADIUS is 115 astronomical units, a = 115 AU.
Fomalhaut-b's orbital PERIOD is 872 years, T = 872 years.

And using Kepler's third law, we get,

P^2 = (2π)^2 a^3 / G M

(872 yr)^2 = (2π)^2 (115 AU )^3 / G (3.978 × 10^30 kg)

Kepler's third law works beautifully for the Fomalhaut system! The
observations agree beautifully with Kepler's law of Harmony!

  #4  
Old April 14th 10, 06:16 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On Apr 14, 4:35*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/14/10 4:13 AM, oriel36 wrote:

On Apr 14, 5:55 am, Sam *wrote:
Backward planets may have flipped into place
Reversed orbits among ‘hot Jupiters’ decreases chance of Earthlike
neighbors.http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...Backward_plane...


I am looking at the list of threads and *this topic is sandwiched
between the guy who sees fossils in meteorites,another who apparently
sees human remains in coal strata and it all comes from the same
attempt to appear original and controversial at the same time and if
there is a nauseating feeling for many when they encounter junk,it is
probably the most valuable faculty they have before descending into
conceptual oblivion.


* *That's your problem, Gerald. There is no connection.


I once thought that the nearest astronomical insight to the daylight/
darkness cycle due to rotation was the daylight/darkness variations in
the seasonal cycles at different latitudes but discovered last year
that it is the latitudinal variations in twilight length correlated
with latitudinal speeds which represent the nearest association to
daily rotation,the fact that the Earth is round causes twilight length
to vary with latitude as a location rotates through the circle of
illumination at various speeds,the slower the speed,the longer the
twilight.The insight is a simple and effective way to bring up the
known rotational speeds and especially the maximum speed of 1037.5
miles per hour at the equator,also representing 15 degrees of
geographical seperation,thereby it all fits together neatly where the
Earth turns 15 degrees per hour and a full equatorial circumference in
24 hours.

In the absence of telescopes,the great astronomers were extremely good
at putting observations in context whereas the magnification tool adds
detail,the problem was that astronomers sacrificed detail for context
and eventually lost context altogether with the rise of empiricism.I
am restoring the link between detail and context which modern imaging
provides and especially the ability to make planetary and even solar
system comparisons in order to discover a streamlined explanation out
of the distinctive features of each planet,solar system comparisons
using the Fomalhaut system are just as fascinating but that is a long
way off at present.

Being in a position to prove rotation once in 24 hours using cause and
effect only allows me to offer people a second chance to revisit the
great astronomical insights using the tools of modern imaging and all
those modifications and adaptations which are waiting for those who
can rise to a level of understanding of planetary dynamics whether it
is climate,geology,solar system structure,influence of the solar
system's galactic orbital motion on orbital dynamics and many,many
other things.The other option is to remain stuck in the late 17th
century Ra/Dec framework which gives you those hideous 'no center/no
circumference' ideologies of big bang/black hole,non-entities which
exist only as wordplays in the minds of mathematicians for a person
who tries to imagine a 'no center/no circumference' object will end up
laughing at the stupidity of it all.

You can continue with the latest/greatest empirical novelty,these
things always have an audience, but effectively they have the same
substance as the fossil guys and most here now know it.






* *It was a particular joy to me to apply Kepler's third law to
* *the observations of the Fomalhaut System and find that the mass
* *falling out of Kepler's equation agree beautifully with the mass
* *predicted by the spectra of that star.

* *Gerald I don't think you have the mathematical background to
* *understand Kepler's third law in its modern applications, but
* *do look at:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion#Third_law

* * *4π^2a^3 = P^2G(M + m)

* *Gerald, just because you can't understand the mathematics, does
* *not make it wrong.

* *Fomalhaut's mass is about 2 solar masses.
* *Fomalhaut-b's orbital RADIUS is 115 astronomical units, a = 115 AU.
* *Fomalhaut-b's orbital PERIOD is 872 years, T = 872 years.

* *And using Kepler's third law, we get,

* * * P^2 = (2π)^2 a^3 / G M

* * *(872 yr)^2 = (2π)^2 (115 AU )^3 / G (3.978 × 10^30 kg)

* *Kepler's third law works beautifully for the Fomalhaut system! The
* *observations agree beautifully with Kepler's law of Harmony!


  #5  
Old April 15th 10, 01:40 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Sam Wormley[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,966
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On 4/14/10 12:16 PM, oriel36 wrote:
Being in a position to prove rotation once in 24 hours using cause and
effect only allows me to offer people a second chance to revisit the
great astronomical insights using the tools of modern imaging and all
those modifications and adaptations which are waiting for those who
can rise to a level of understanding of planetary dynamics whether it
is climate,geology,solar system structure,influence of the solar
system's galactic orbital motion on orbital dynamics and many,many
other things.


What you wrote is just word salad, Gerald!

Direct observation shows you are wrong about the 24 hours. And of
course galactic orbital motion has nothing to do with the planetary
dynamics of our solar system. Newton work out the basics and planetary
and celestial mechanics quickly followed.

You should get yourself a copy of:

EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL ALMANAC
Edited by P. Kenneth Seidelmann, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington D.C.
University Science Books Mill Valley, CA 94941 1992
Library of Congress Catalog Number: 91-65331
ISBN 0-935702-68-7


"In just the last
few years the International Astronomical Union has introduced subtle
changes in the reference frame used for the coordinates of celestial
objects, both within and far beyond our solar system. So sweeping are
these revisions that a highly respected work for professional
astronomers, the EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL EPHEMERIS,
published in 1961, is now seriously out of date. [The EXPLANATORY
SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL ALMANAC, published in 1992 replaces this
older work.] While the technical journals have seen a flurry of
scientific papers on these issues, [Meeus' book] is the first to offer
succinct and practical methods for coping with the changeover. It will
be many years before astronomical data bases and catalogs are fully
converted to the new system, and anyone who needs a detailed
understanding of what's going on will appreciate this book's many
comments about the FK4 and FK5 reference frames, 'equinox error,' and
the distinction between 'J' and 'B' when placed before an epoch like
2000.0.

"Scarcely any formula is presented without a fully worked numerical
example--so crucial to the debugging process. the emphasis throughout is
on testing, on the proper arrangement of formulae, and on not pushing
them beyond the time span over which they are valid. Chapter 2 contains
much wisdom of this sort, growing out of the author's long experience
with various computers and their languages. He alerts us to other
pitfalls throughout the text. Anyone who tries to chart the path of a
comet, for instance, soon encounters Kepler's equation. It has so vexed
astronomers over the years that literally hundreds of solutions have
been proposed; the striking graphs in Chapter 29 give a good idea why.

"We now live in a thrilling time for practitioners of the
number-crunching art. The four-function pocket calculators that were so
costly 20 years ago are now incorporated as a gimmick on certain
wris****ches. The memory capacity of the 1K RAM board in the pioneering
MITS Altair microcomputer is exceeded 500-fold by a single chip in some
of today's laptop and notebook computers. Who knows what other marvels
lie just ahead? By presenting these astronomical algorithms in standard
mathematical notation, rather than in the form of program listings, the
author has made them accessible to users of a wide variety of machines
and computer languages--including those not yet invented".

The primary purpose of this 760 page (completely revised and rewritten
to conform to the FK5 reference frame in current use) EXPLANATORY
SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL ALMANAC is to provide users of THE
ASTRONOMICAL ALMANAC with more complete explanations of the
significance, sources, methods of computation, and use of the data given
in the almanac than can be included annually in the almanac itself. The
secondary purpose is to provide complementary information that doesn't
change annually, such as conceptual explanations, lists of constants and
other data, bibliographic references, and historical information
relating to the almanac.

Many users of the almanac are not the professional astronomers for whom
it is primarily designed, and so this supplement contains some
explanatory material at an elementary level; it is not, however,
intended for use as a basic textbook on spherical and dynamical
astronomy. In some respects it does supplement such textbooks since it
is concerned with new concepts or new techniques.

This supplement differs in many respects from its predecessor, the
EXPLANATORY SUPPLEMENT TO THE ASTRONOMICAL EPHEMERIS AND THE AMERICAN
EPHEMERIS AND NAUTICAL ALMANAC. Vector and matrix notation have been
introduced and more diagrams have been provided. Simple conversion
tables and tables of quantities that can be calculated directly from
simple formulas have been omitted. Detailed step-by-step examples have
been omitted, and approximation methods have not been given. Most of the
text is new but historical material has been carried over for the
convenience of those who do not have ready access to the previous
supplement.

There is a tremendous amount of information and rigor in the EXPLANATORY
SUPPLEMENT. The following chapters (and some sub-chapters) give a little
insight into the content.

1. Introduction to Positional Astronomy
2. Time

3. Celestial Reference Systems
4. Terrestrial Coordinates and the Rotation of the Earth
The task of establishing or defining the terrestrial
coordinates of a point is inextricably linked to establishing
the rotation of the earth over time. The definition of any
terrestrial reference coordinate system is given by
establishing a celestial reference coordinate system and a
suitable transformation between them. This chapter includes
grid systems such as Longitude and Latitude, Universal
Transverse Mercator (UTM), Universal Polar Stereographic
(UPS), and so on, Geodetic Datums, and the Global Positioning
System (GPS).

5. Orbital Ephemerides of the Sun, Moon, and Planets
6. Orbital Ephemerides and Rings of Satellites

7. Physical Ephemerides of the Sun, Moon, Planets, and Satellites
8. Eclipses of the Sun and Moon

9. Astronomical Phenomena
9.1 General Aspects of the Night Sky
9.2 Configurations of The Sun, Moon, and Planets
9.3 Risings, Settings, and Twilight
9.4 Occultations
9.5 Pole-Star Tables
9.6 References
10. Stars and Stellar Systems

11. Computational Techniques
11.1 Introduction to Computing Techniques
11.2 Interpolation and subtabulation
11.3 Plane and Spherical Trigonometry
11.4 Matrix and Vector Techniques
11.41 Rotation of Axis Using Matrices
11.42 Spherical Coordinates Using Vectors
11.43 Spherical Coordinate Transformations
11.5 Numerical Calculus
11.6 Statistics
11.7 References
12. Calendars
This section includes: Introduction, The Gregorian, Hebrew,
Islamic, Indian, and Chinese Calendars as well as Julian
Day Numbers and Julian Date, The Julian Calendar, Calendar
Conversion Algorithms and References.

13. Historical Information
14. Related Publications
15. Reference Data

Glossary

Index


The last chapter, Reference Data, contains pages of Fundamental
Constants, Time and Standard Epochs, constants relating to the Sun,
Earth, and Moon, Geodetic Reference Systems, Planets: Mean Elements,
Planets: Rotational Data, Planets: Physical and Photometric Data,
Satellites: Orbital Data, Satellites: Physical and Photometric Data,
Planetary Rings and on and on.


  #6  
Old April 15th 10, 09:13 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,478
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On Apr 15, 1:40*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/14/10 12:16 PM, oriel36 wrote:

Being in a position to prove rotation once in 24 hours using cause and
effect only allows me to offer people a second chance to revisit the
great astronomical insights using the tools of modern imaging *and all
those modifications and adaptations which are waiting for those who
can rise to a level of understanding of planetary dynamics whether it
is climate,geology,solar system structure,influence of the solar
system's galactic orbital motion on orbital dynamics and many,many
other things.


* *What you wrote is just word salad, Gerald!

* *Direct observation shows you are wrong about the 24 hours.


There is no right or wrong as to why twilight lengths vary with
latitude,the slower rotational speeds away from the equator correlate
with longer twilights where the maximum equatorial speed is 1037.5
miles per hour and turning an entire 24,901 mile circumference in 24
hours.This is the only proof people will need to recover astronomy
and in doing so ,recover their own humanity,to act as a servant to
humanity instead of a slave to a cult tyranny.

The proof is nothing more than a way to open up the windows on
planetary dynamics,for instance,the current volcanic activity in
Iceland is linked to the underlying Mid Atlantic Ridge which shows all
the traits of being influenced by the internal rotational
mechanism.Astronomers could have pointed out the lack of tectonic
activity on Venus apart from volcanism by correlating the rotational
characteristics of each planet, their spherical deviation and numerous
ways to extract clues as to the internal characteristics.The
conceptual gridlock surfaces in geology by assigning no rotational
mechanism between viscous interior and fractured crust and that makes
it an astronomical problem or rather,the inability to even discuss
rotational speeds generates no conceptual spark needed to get cause
and effect up and running.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/tr...-forecast.html

I have earned the right to express dismay at what the large
institutions are doing or not doing but ultimately it is the people
who frequent this forum who should be ashamed of themselves for not
recognizing the simple and effective proof for rotation once in 24
hours thereby moving things forward to productive topics.



..






And of
* *course galactic orbital motion has nothing to do with the planetary
* *dynamics of our solar system. Newton work out the basics and planetary
* *and celestial mechanics quickly followed.

  #7  
Old April 15th 10, 11:36 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Posts: 3,966
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On 4/15/10 3:13 AM, oriel36 wrote:
I have earned the right to express dismay at what the large
institutions are doing or not doing but ultimately it is the people
who frequent this forum who should be ashamed of themselves for not
recognizing the simple and effective proof for rotation once in 24
hours thereby moving things forward to productive topics.


Gerald, please don't try to shame others for your misunderstandings.

We (you and I) can go out and measure all 360 of the earth's
rotation on any clear pair of nights in exactly one sidereal day.
You could do it on your own, but I doubt you ever will. Your denial
is like the church looking through Galileo's telescope darkly back
in 1610.

  #8  
Old April 15th 10, 01:39 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,478
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On Apr 15, 11:36*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/15/10 3:13 AM, oriel36 wrote:

I have earned the right to express dismay at what the large
institutions are doing or not doing but ultimately it is the people
who frequent this forum who should be ashamed of themselves for not
recognizing the simple and effective proof for rotation once in 24
hours thereby moving things forward to productive topics.


* *Gerald, please don't try to shame others for your misunderstandings.


Shame is not a permanent condition,accepting that the proof is
effective is pretty much the intelligent thing to do,not just that
slower rotational speeds correlate with longer twilights thereby
acknowledging a round and rotating Earth but the myriad of links which
flow from that information



* *We (you and I) can go out and measure all 360 of the earth's
* *rotation on any clear pair of nights in exactly one sidereal day.



The return of a star in 23 hour 56 minutes has no intrinsic value,it
can't tell you anything of the rotational speed at your
latitude,again,it is a matter of intelligence and if you give me your
latitudinal details,I will find out how fast your location will travel
through the circle of illumination or through an entire 360 degrees
using the equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour as a benchmark.


* *You could do it on your own, but I doubt you ever will. Your denial
* *is like the church looking through Galileo's telescope darkly back
* *in 1610.


People should be delighted to have the proof for daily rotation once
in 24 hours,a proof in line with the astronomical tradition which
stretches back to antiquity and much of what happens now depends on
how quickly people can adapt to 21st century astronomy where imaging
power allows for planetary comparisons to derive common relationships
between cause and effect with the flawed reasoning removed.As
always,there are many ways to approach astronomy depending on what a
person wants from it,some just want to detail the constellations or
different objects while others go on to context at a terrestrial or
cosmological level,there is no reason for those involved in Ra/Dec
observing to trip up those who operate from context and unfortunately
that is the main source of the conceptual gridlock presently.

How fortunate for that eruption in Iceland just as you happened to
post about volcanism on Venus ,I assure you that I have no interest in
priority when discussing the rotational mechanism and geology,just
the satisfaction in working on something that is new,fresh and
enjoyable.



  #9  
Old April 15th 10, 03:05 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Sam Wormley[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,966
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On 4/15/10 7:39 AM, oriel36 wrote:
The return of a star in 23 hour 56 minutes has no intrinsic value,it
can't tell you anything of the rotational speed at your
latitude,again,it is a matter of intelligence and if you give me your
latitudinal details,I will find out how fast your location will travel
through the circle of illumination or through an entire 360 degrees
using the equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour as a benchmark.


The speed (as a function al latitude) is of little concern to me.
At all latitudes the earth rotates 360 in one sidereal day, easily
observed anywhere on the earth.


  #10  
Old April 16th 10, 04:48 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,478
Default Backward planets may have flipped into place

On Apr 15, 3:05*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/15/10 7:39 AM, oriel36 wrote:

The return of a star in 23 hour 56 minutes has no intrinsic value,it
can't tell you anything of the rotational speed at your
latitude,again,it is a matter of intelligence and if you give me your
latitudinal details,I will find out how fast your location will travel
through the circle of illumination or through an entire 360 degrees
using the equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour as a benchmark.


* *The speed (as a function al latitude) is of little concern to me.
* *At all latitudes the earth rotates 360 in one sidereal day, easily
* *observed anywhere on the earth.


You know Sam to put this in proper perspective,,if I took you to the
Western shores and showed you that there is a correlation between wind
strength and wave heights,the stronger the wind blows the higher the
waves,you would probably feel insulted that such an explanation is
even necessary yet here we have an entire group of people in
sci.astro.amateur who feel a desperate need to argue against the
correlation between latitudinal rotational speeds and twilight
lengths,the slower the speed away from the equator the longer the
twilight denoting a round and rotating Earth.In order to prevent
falling into dismay,I have to believe that all people are not
unresponsive to the enormity of the error and that they fully
understand that while the proof for rotation of the Earth through 360
degrees in 24 hours using known rotational speeds for each latitude is
simple and effective,it is only the beginning of cause and effect
applied to all areas where planetary dynamics and terrestrial effects
mesh.

Each individual has to look in the mirror and be prepared to accept
the level at which they choose to comprehend the correlation between
cause and effect,just as wind strength/wave heights takes no real
effort ,neither does the correlation between twilight length/
latitudinal speeds and people should be ashamed of themselves if they
continue to promote an alternative explanation just to save the crude
conclusion of 'sidereal time' .I would also like to think that people
would deal with the error in an urgent way rather than attempt to
defend the error created by Flamsteed.



 




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